TubaForum.net

Hey y’all,

This horn (https://jimlaabsmusicstore.com/store/sc ... er-plated/) seems to be a MW Thor copy (such as Dillon Music’s JZ 5450 and Thomann’s Grand Fifty). Anybody have thoughts/reviews on the specific Schiller version? I’ve seen the JZ horn pop up on the forum a couple of times (I wanna say bloke had one ?), and I believe one is on sale at Baltimore Brass so just curious on info.

Thanks!

Well, the description certainly doesn't match. "4 Monel Pistons-3 Top 1 Side Rotary", when the picture shows 4 front valves and a 5th rotor?

GC wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:06 am Well, the description certainly doesn't match. "4 Monel Pistons-3 Top 1 Side Rotary", when the picture shows 4 front valves and a 5th rotor?

Unfortunately, Schiller is known for their “off” descriptions such as this horn being “compensating.”

utsatuba wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 6:59 pm

GC wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:06 am Well, the description certainly doesn't match. "4 Monel Pistons-3 Top 1 Side Rotary", when the picture shows 4 front valves and a 5th rotor?

Unfortunately, Schiller is known for their “off” descriptions such as this horn being “compensating.”

Years back, a lot of places selling tubas would call anything with more than 4 valves compensating or semi-compensating. Apparently the words “fully chromatic to the fundamental” hadn’t been invented.

“European design with big warm sound and outstanding intonation. Vociferous Low End Projection The key to the exceptional sound of the Schiller Elite is in the quality grade of the Brass & Nickel Silver Tubings combined with the engineering that Schiller is well noted for.”

To me, Schiller will forever be best known for the quality of it’s ad copy!

Schiller/Jim Laabs is the worst place to buy a Chinese horn from...no quality control, no customer service, and the notoriously awful descriptions. Better to find the same model by another retailer. They're all the same model from the same factory, after all.

I have relatives that live a couple of hours from there.
It's quite a nice town - particularly in the summer.
The son of the namesake is a nice enough (I'm thinking, possibly not ultra-knowledgeable) guy.
If you want the cheapest jimbo, though, you might go there, test, and grab. He moves a lot of that.

Finetales wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:26 pm Schiller/Jim Laabs is the worst place to buy a Chinese horn from...no quality control, no customer service, and the notoriously awful descriptions. Better to find the same model by another retailer. They're all the same model from the same factory, after all.

Thanks, but what's your basis? Experience with them, talking to people who have had this experience, or from reading reviews? I'm not trying to defend them, just trying to understand. Thanks!

I haven't played this model. I have a Schiller euphonium that I bought used. I'm thrilled with it. I tend to believe that there are so many of these euphoniums made and sold that they probably have gotten really good at making them. There are so many different tubas they make, I'm guessing there could be a bigger gap between this tuba and the one it copies

COMPENSATING

bloke wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:30 pm ...jimbo...

Pretty sure this isn't a Jinbao; looks more like it's from ZO, who make a Thor copy. Their factory is in Hengshui.

UncleBeer wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2024 3:39 am

bloke wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:30 pm ...jimbo...

Pretty sure this isn't a Jinbao; looks more like it's from ZO, who make a Thor copy. Their factory is in Hengshui.

Okay. The picture isn't that good. I actually bought one of those ZO things - to which you refer - quite a while back and did some heavy mods to it. (For one thing, the mouthpipe from the factory was comically large.) I still didn't care for it. It's physically bigger than 5450. Also, I really couldn't play it without manipulating both the first and third slides, which (at least with the York style piston setup) is a non-starter for me, and which is why I don't mess with Swiss contrabass tubas, among others
It played okay, but (again) not really good enough for me. I think I played some Rachmaninoff on it with the Memphis Symphony, I'm pretty sure I did a Celtic Woman Christmas concert with it, there's a picture of me playing another show with that instrument, so I guess I may have played a handful of concerts with it. Since the online picture is so funky - and I was looking at it on such a tiny screen here on my phone, I thought it was one of those NOT-Wiseman-9XX sort of old-old pt6P copy things that played so badly out of tune that they (that vendor) seemed to offer for a long time in the past.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Bassman71 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2024 2:47 pm

Finetales wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:26 pm Schiller/Jim Laabs is the worst place to buy a Chinese horn from...no quality control, no customer service, and the notoriously awful descriptions. Better to find the same model by another retailer. They're all the same model from the same factory, after all.

Thanks, but what's your basis? Experience with them, talking to people who have had this experience, or from reading reviews? I'm not trying to defend them, just trying to understand. Thanks!

When I looked into buying from them while I was still a newbie, I noted that there is no return policy if you don't like what you get, as there is at the reputable dealers. You can send it back, at your expense, for another one, but you cannot get a refund.

I doubt that has changed. I have recently played one of their BBb tubas and it was not anything I would be even slightly interested in owning. The person who was selling it had the same opinion and was trying to dump it to get something better.

bloke wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2024 10:19 am I actually bought one of those ZO things - to which you refer - quite a while back and did some heavy mods to it.

I honked on their Thor copy during a factory visit, and I agree: the intonation was pretty off.

Their Little Thunderbird (copy of a Nirschl 4/4) is a sweet horn though.

I've played a "handmade" Nirschl, a production Nirschl, a B&S Nirschl (Besson 995), and a Brazil Nirschl.
(more than one of each, but whatever)

The handmade ("hands" down) was the best, but was impossible to play up to pitch (and someone else had already cut the main slide to the quick).

It was brought to me due to the mouthpipe being rotten.

Fortunately, I figured out a way to bend a replacement that was over an inch sorter YET leaving the receiver in precisely the same spot.

(success...a WONDERFUL and great-tuning tuba - though sorta mono-sororous)

Bassman71 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2024 2:47 pm

Finetales wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:26 pm Schiller/Jim Laabs is the worst place to buy a Chinese horn from...no quality control, no customer service, and the notoriously awful descriptions. Better to find the same model by another retailer. They're all the same model from the same factory, after all.

Thanks, but what's your basis? Experience with them, talking to people who have had this experience, or from reading reviews? I'm not trying to defend them, just trying to understand. Thanks!

I've never bought from them personally, because I've heard and read so many bad reviews of the experience. I haven't seen a single "bought a Schiller from Jim Laabs" review that wasn't scathing. Not about the horns themselves, but of the experience buying from Jim Laabs. That's a pretty big gamble when you're buying a horn with no QC that could easily be a dud and you can't get a refund for it.

The Schiller horns themselves can be good depending on the model, like any Chinese horn. I have a Schiller euphonium that I bought used here on the forum and I have no issues with it. I actually replaced a Sterling Virtuoso with it, and though the Sterling was obviously a cool instrument the Schiller is a better player overall.

Finetales wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:12 am
The Schiller horns themselves can be good depending on the model, like any Chinese horn. I have a Schiller euphonium that I bought used here on the forum and I have no issues with it. I actually replaced a Sterling Virtuoso with it, and though the Sterling was obviously a cool instrument the Schiller is a better player overall.

I 100% agree. I love my Schiller Euphonium. I also got it used from an excellent local Euphonium player who did a fair amount of upgrades to it. New Yamaha valve springs and caps and had some bore optimization done. It will take a lot of practicing before that horn is holding me back as a musician.

Years ago I bought one of those Schiller 7b copy bass bones from their ebay store. I went for the nickel plated version because I thought it looked nice and unique. The guy called me on the phone, said they didn't have the nickel version but just the gold brass/bronze version. I said, " that's fine", even though I wanted the nickel finish. They shipped it, complete in the case, wrapped in plastic in perfect condition.

Aside from a different finish I originally wanted, it has been great and I have used it in a college big band as a ringer/guest musician.
It plays very well, and is pretty with the gold brass/bronze bell and nickel-silver slide. The slide is good and smooth; the upper trigger slides were a little rough out of the box. But I've smoothed them out a bit. There was a tiny pinhole leak by the main tuning slide I found and patched soon after testing it. Otherwise, the horn looks and sounds great years later
The rotors, linkage/trigger mechanisms, and valve caps are all smooth and good -- no issues. I bought a couple mouthpieces for the horn that I much prefer over the one supplied.

One guy I know -- who plays at the same place I do -- got one of those much more expensive Shires Q bass bones. He had issues with his rotors sticking just a couple weeks after buying it and had to send it to a shop to remedy it. It is a larger, more "symphonic" bass bone, also with a gold brass bell. I dunno if he'd let me toot on it, but it would be interesting to compare. He chalked up the rotors sticking to "tighter tolerances".
I've not had any issues with my bass bone rotors as of yet.

utsatuba wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:03 pm Hey y’all,

This horn (https://jimlaabsmusicstore.com/store/sc ... er-plated/) seems to be a MW Thor copy (such as Dillon Music’s JZ 5450 and Thomann’s Grand Fifty). Anybody have thoughts/reviews on the specific Schiller version? I’ve seen the JZ horn pop up on the forum a couple of times (I wanna say bloke had one ?), and I believe one is on sale at Baltimore Brass so just curious on info.

Thanks!

I would also like to hear from anyone who has played one of those Schiller Thor-esque copies. But It looks like Laabs has quietly changed the 'Studio Elite CC' model from the Thor-esque copy to a HB-21 copy
Anyone here play the HB-21 copy

This thread is pretty ancient.
Back when the Rolls-Royce of tubas was sweeping the nation ("Wow they're expensive, so they obviously are good", etc.) and they quickly put together some medium-large-sized C instruments to break into the American market...

I bought a 21 (actual factory model designation: 392) used - in absolutely new condition - in the St Louis area (quite a few years ago) for $8,000. I played it for a year, oh so carefully and nicely cut the third slide so as there's at least a possible way to play E flat in tune, and sold it for $9,000.
(I believe the boat analogy might come into play here.)

(I didn't replace it with anything for quite a long time, and used my B&S Symphonie 6-valve F tuba for everything. I sold my 392 when one of my students - as I was teaching at Ole Miss at the time - bought a brand new 186 which played rings around my 392.)

I wore my left hand out trying to simultaneously manipulate the first and third slides when playing the 392. Since then, I've decided that any tuba which it requires that left hand ballet dance is a non-starter (though admittedly the fourth partial 23 pitch is often flat-tending with brass instruments, including some fine ones...but that model requires more than that.)

Today we all know that the tooling has been bought by another European company and they are offering it made out of various alloys of metal and so on.

As a dealer of JP instruments, they offer a really high-quality (in my judgment, as well built as the European original) knockoff, the issue being that it has all the same intonation characteristics. I don't advertise them. When someone calls about them I have a discussion with them about whether they've played a Hirsbrunner, Adams, or JP and are familiar with the playing characteristics. (I can't be taking back sold brand new multiple-thousand-dollar instruments - whether or not the instrument and its case have picked up some dinks and scratches - because someone says "it's just not right for me".)

For those who believe the first version (390) - whereby all they did was paste their Nirschl-made Yorkbrunner piston valveset on to their body designed for a rotary C (using up the needed mouth pipe length via an odd-looking bell-mounted slide) was better, as I've repaired and played those and - really (sorry to cause disagreement, triggering, or whatever) - they are no better.

I'm completely aware that these instruments have their fan base which is VERY loyal. I'm delighted that those people are happy with their instruments. Happiness and pleasure are what all of us need more of.

All of that said, the 390 and 392 (not requiring much perusal as this is patently obvious - at least to me) are cut-downs of the Hirsbrunner 192 model - a B-flat which is a rotary model and offers pretty darn good intonation. Further, the cutdowns sport typical cutdown intonation quirks (in my view). Even today, a large percentage of Americans (based on these threads, social media and so forth) are averse to rotary valves and B flat tubas (maybe even tubas smaller than 6/4...??), so there's that. Jinbao offers a pretty good body-copy of the rotary B-flat 192, but I believe I would find a used one for a few hundred bucks and invest in a Meinlschmidt complete valveset to replace the original, were I in love with that design.