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Hard to get butts in the seats for anything other than movie soundtracks I guess.

AvrTuba wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2026 11:05 pm Hard to get butts in the seats for anything other than movie soundtracks I guess.

Playing them perhaps not quite as well as they were played by those who originally recorded them.

Awful news...

19th century orchestra music hit a revival era in the 1970s for about eight or ten years, and it's popularity has declined since then as societal sophistication and tastes have declined deeply towards banality.

I'm not going to name an orchestra, but I believe one near me used to be considered per-service when I was a teenager and paid about $3,500 around 1970 (whereby the entire orchestra was paid about that much and there was even a summer orchestra organized by someone else that brought them a little bit more money. Of course, all of the musicians had regular jobs, and they never rehearsed in the daytime, back then). Today, I believe only the core is considered full-time-ISH, and paid about $30,000, which is the same money (as was $3,500 back then) adjusted for inflation.

A few very large cities' orchestras continue to enjoy pretty good attendance, though - just like those in the smaller cities - their programs have been dumbed down, and musicians have made salary and benefit concessions. ... People will fill up at a basketball arena to hear a rap concert, and they don't need a whole bunch of fiddle players and horn tooters sitting behind them -playing double whole notes to sell tickets. A few orchestras with very very large endowments will probably survive as long as future executive directors don't squander their endowments, and also assuming that the Fed won't - again and again, as it did in the early part of this decade - cut the value of the dollar in half several more times in the next few years.

With most orchestras, if anybody wants to make a wage that covers all of their expenses, need to work in the office. Many board meetings - across the country - include regularly bringing up the topic of how to cut the budget and pay the musicians less.

The top-down-orchestrated economic shutdown was really hard on symphony orchestras and - just as in Nashville - the big single donors are all dying off, and their heirs are looking askance at the wisdom of those hefty donations (certainly as the value of the dollar has been halved by the Fed, and particularly attendance fizzles).

I don't see this (even so-called non-profit) business model as sustainable. I've pointed out before that the profit in non-profits is in the salaries of two or three people at the top of these organizations.

From another version of the same story:

“…The symphony said ongoing operating deficits and existing financial obligations made continuing the season untenable, despite a more than 50% increase in revenue since 2024…”

graybach wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 8:39 am From another version of the same story:

“…The symphony said ongoing operating deficits and existing financial obligations made continuing the season untenable, despite a more than 50% increase in revenue since 2024…”

Wow. That seems like a non-trivial fact, if accurate.

Wealthy donors and patrons who are passing away and leaving their money to their children. Those heirs perhaps don't see the same value in classical music and are maybe moving their wealth to other parts of society that would have a more meaningful impact on their community.

Why donate $10,000,000 to an orchestra who put on movie soundtracks and Beethoven & Bonnets concerts when you could inject that money into other social services or institutions that can actually serve your community?

If I were a betting man, there will be more orchestras in the future who are going to cancel their season in the hopes for some wealthy sap or company to swoop in and save the day.

UncleBeer wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 9:35 am Wow. That seems like a non-trivial fact, if accurate.

When that weaponized virus was released in China - which gave all of the world's governments (and the world's ruling class, which controls all of them) an excuse to shut down productivity and to shut down all of the national economies as well as the world's economy, the Fed printed countless trillions of dollars out of thin air. It's not difficult to figure out what that did to the value of the dollar.

Just an our micro economic sector alone, school band programs were given huge amounts of money and bought absurd quantities of instruments such as (yes, really... and all over the country) "a couple dozen silver Bach Stradivarius trumpets". (I'm sure some of you believe that I'm making this up.)

symphony orchestras...???
They were already all dangling by a shoestring, as has always been the case.

What was done to all of us (all across the world) - and my view of of all of it - has nothing to do with left/right/politics. It simply has to do with intentional evil and suppression of the serf class (when it becomes a little bit too independent and prosperous) since time immemorial.

Whenever I read about an orchestra's situation like this, I always wonder what their specific circumstances are that are not being publicized.

For example, the San Jose (CA) Symphony Orchestra went bankrupt about 25 years ago even though the area was drenched in money. The public commentary was about how people don't value the fine arts anymore. A few years later, the former conductor of that group, Leonid Grin, came to DC to conduct the National Symphony Orchestra with The Washington Chorus. I was a singer in the chorus. The conductor was terrible! He was such a buffoon that the concertmaster and assistant concertmaster were laughing at him in rehearsals. They couldn't even contain themselves during the performance. It was truly painful to watch and to be a part of great music being destroyed by one incompetent leader. The San Jose orchestra obviously went bust because the musical product stunk and nobody wanted to buy it. But that fact was never on the internet.

Here in DC, we have our own ridiculous situation with the much-needed renovation of the Kennedy Center being blocked over who gets credit for it. Personally, I would prefer to see nobody's name on it- rename it The National Center for the Performing Arts. Make it about the performing arts, not a person.

Neither of these situations are from lack of money or the community not valuing great music. They are just from dysfunction on an individual, organizational, or cultural level. The trap people fall into is to blame everyone else for their problems rather than dig in and fix it.

Regarding Phoenix, it went full-time back in 1983 when the area's population was a fraction of what it is now. I am not convinced that there are not enough supporters there. Insiders must know what the problems are, but they're not being publicized.

UncleBeer wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 9:35 am

graybach wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 8:39 am From another version of the same story:

“…The symphony said ongoing operating deficits and existing financial obligations made continuing the season untenable, despite a more than 50% increase in revenue since 2024…”

Wow. That seems like a non-trivial fact, if accurate.

Yeah where exactly is this revenue going? I know between 2021 and 2023 we had an insane amount of inflation that broke a ton of people. My only guess is that they tried to increase compensation to account for all that and it ended up being too much to sustain. That being said even ive only gone to one live symphony concert in the last year and it was because my friend plays in the orchestra.

sweaty wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:48 am Whenever I read about an orchestra's situation like this, I always wonder what their specific circumstances are that are not being publicized.

For example, the San Jose (CA) Symphony Orchestra went bankrupt about 25 years ago even though the area was drenched in money. The public commentary was about how people don't value the fine arts anymore. A few years later, the former conductor of that group, Leonid Grin, came to DC to conduct the National Symphony Orchestra with The Washington Chorus. I was a singer in the chorus. The conductor was terrible! He was such a buffoon that the concertmaster and assistant concertmaster were laughing at him in rehearsals. They couldn't even contain themselves during the performance. It was truly painful to watch and to be a part of great music being destroyed by one incompetent leader. The San Jose orchestra obviously went bust because the musical product stunk and nobody wanted to buy it. But that fact was never on the internet.

Here in DC, we have our own ridiculous situation with the much-needed renovation of the Kennedy Center being blocked over who gets credit for it. Personally, I would prefer to see nobody's name on it- rename it The National Center for the Performing Arts. Make it about the performing arts, not a person.

Neither of these situations are from lack of money or the community not valuing great music. They are just from dysfunction on an individual, organizational, or cultural level. The trap people fall into is to blame everyone else for their problems rather than dig in and fix it.

Regarding Phoenix, it went full-time back in 1983 when the area's population was a fraction of what it is now. I am not convinced that there are not enough supporters there. Insiders must know what the problems are, but they're not being publicized.

You're right the real problem is usually embarrassing and the one part that isnt shared. Maybe if somebody knows somebody they can give people a clue as to what the real issue is. Im always curious to know how many folks these days are trying to go for these jobs and what the current quality is like. Long ago I gave up playing for a big orchestra like this because it feels like these orchestras decide who they want before the fact and most of my peers either went into military bands like me or stopped playing altogether so im not up to date on anything like attendance or salarys

Timtamtuba wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 1:10 pm
it feels like these orchestras decide who they want before the fact

Aren't the principal trumpet and tuba player in The Phoenix Symphony married?

Surely that's just a coincidence.

I don't know how accurate stuff I find on the internet ever is, but if what I found is accurate, the executive director makes enough money to pay about seven sidemen musician's' salaries, and all the office workers together make enough money to pay the salaries of about 21 sidemen musicians.

I wonder if the executive director and all those people in the office are going to be sent home as well.

It just seems to me that symphony orchestras in the United States are never about the musicians or the music.. Rather, they are viewed as expensive nuisances.

It’s a business selling a product.

When nobody wants the product, why would the business keep selling it?

AvrTuba wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 3:29 pm It’s a business selling a product.

When nobody wants the product, why would the business keep selling it?

You have just stumbled across the definition of a "non-profit".

bloke wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 3:46 pm

AvrTuba wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 3:29 pm It’s a business selling a product.

When nobody wants the product, why would the business keep selling it?

You have just stumbled across the definition of a "non-profit".

Apparently they’ve taken the name a little too literally.

bloke wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 3:27 pm I don't know how accurate stuff I find on the internet ever is, but if what I found is accurate, the executive director makes enough money to pay about seven sidemen musician's' salaries, and all the office workers together make enough money to pay the salaries of about 21 sidemen musicians.

I wonder if the executive director and all those people in the office are going to be sent home as well.

It just seems to me that symphony orchestras in the United States are never about the musicians or the music.. Rather, they are viewed as expensive nuisances.

Ive noticed this as well. The administration of the orchestra always makes 4-7x what the musicians do. for what reason? Who knows seems similar to how government bureaucrats making solid 6 figures and nobody knows what they do.

AvrTuba wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 1:17 pm

Timtamtuba wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 1:10 pm
it feels like these orchestras decide who they want before the fact

Aren't the principal trumpet and tuba player in The Phoenix Symphony married?

Surely that's just a coincidence.

Just an observation but in my city Orchestra, nearly everyone is either friends or students or friends of students of the other members in the Orchestra.
Im not trying to imply that they aren't competent for the seats they are sitting in but there is a very clear pipeline to enter the Orchestra and very few people outside of this pipeline ever make it in. I feel like this is probably how most symphony Orchestras work though especially when there is a university with a music program in the same city and most of the professors at the university also play for the Orchestra.

Timtamtuba wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 4:27 pm

AvrTuba wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 1:17 pm

Timtamtuba wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2026 1:10 pm
it feels like these orchestras decide who they want before the fact

Aren't the principal trumpet and tuba player in The Phoenix Symphony married?

Surely that's just a coincidence.

Just an observation but in my city Orchestra, nearly everyone is either friends or students or friends of students of the other members in the Orchestra.
Im not trying to imply that they aren't competent for the seats they are sitting in but there is a very clear pipeline to enter the Orchestra and very few people outside of this pipeline ever make it in. I feel like this is probably how most symphony Orchestras work though especially when there is a university with a music program in the same city and most of the professors at the university also play for the Orchestra.

This is why blind auditions are important, why improving blind audition practices is important, and why most orchestras in the United States conduct mostly (if not completely) blind auditions.