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I have had a couple CC Tubas, that have the slightly flat fifth valve that actually turned them into pretty decent playing B Flat tubas. The MW 37 and the Alex 163 to be specific. Has anyone out there ever toured around with the YFB621 with a slightly low fifth valve? I know a lot of people out there. Don’t like the Yamaha sound characteristics, but I’ve learned over the years that my playing and a lot of Yamaha tubas tend to go hand-in-hand. I’m just not a huge fan anymore of the YEB321. I would really rather have a front action instrument. I of course also would like to not drop over $10,000 on a Wilson, and I also would really like to have non-compensated valves.

Maybe the Wessex Eb Front Piston Tuba ‘Gnagey’ TE465?

Or if you could find the rare Gronitz Piston Eb used.

Since you wanted non-compensating.

Oooorrrrrr you could make a longer fith valve or custom main tuning slide if it ends up being an alright horn in Eb... I haven't spent time with a Yamaha YFB621 to know how well it would work

I would just get an Eb that's not a Yamaha... Or just play the tuba in F...

One of the DC military bands guys was an Eb guy and wrote on the old site about doing as you describe, iirc it did not work very well. I like the 621F as it is and never had a issue with the sound but the valve angle is way too off for my long arms and big hands.

A King .689 front valve set on a 321 body would probably be a nice horn, but that's a lot of work and money to only go from a nice horn to a nice horn that points the other way. I remember seeing a 321 euph body on eBay years ago for like 90 bucks, I did consider that for a while to get a front action euph. Flipping a 321 Eb is probably only viable given a similar find, I can't imagine there's much of a market for a used top action valveset so it's basically going on your shelf until you sell it for a hundred bucks to a guy making his own cimbasso who doesn't care that it's top action because it's a hundred bucks.

If you're looking for a more financially accessible Eb tuba, the St. Pete I played years ago at the Midwest clinic was awesome. Good intonation, great sound, very consistent throughout the registers, strong low end. It sounded like a rotary horn but played like a piston horn. That's a sample of one however.

Front action Eb's are kind of a mixed bag. Some of the vintage horns play well (particularly small Conns and Yorks though I don't think York made a small front action Eb) but 4 valves is a rarity, the older European rotary horns are what they are, the MW's have a reputation of inconsistency and are out of production, the Willsons and Miraphone Stars are expensive and most everything else is rare here and also expensive (HB and Gronitz) or the compensated 983. Kanstul made a vintage Giant style Eb and the one I played sounded great but also had the same quirks as the old horns.

There was a Weril Eb but I don't know how many were imported here, the C and Bb tubas were popular for the price.

Something VERY important to consider that should go into horn design is the rate of taper of the conical tubing in producing the sound and idiosyncrasies that go into pitch center, evenness, and intonation.

Putting a 5th valve down will not help you with this, and will make it stuffy. I know the Getzen CB 50 had where it could lock into place, but when I have switched students to CC and they still have performances on BBb, I make them use the BBb and do a clean cut with CC. When I learned CC, I thought it was the fingerings and relearning those. As I have gotten much older, learned F tuba a year and a half after CC, and have taught this several times, the difficulties in learning a new key tuba is the pitch center.

When I sit on juries, especially trumpet ones when they are learning C trumpet, Eb trumpet, piccolo trumpet, the fingerings are the same--but yet they don't sound or center the same when they are learning.

In my honest opinion, I would look at a wide variety of Ebs if you want to learn Eb. You have rotor CC instruments, so have you considered the Alexander Eb, or the Miraphone Norwegian Star or Starlight? All are superb horns, the Starlight is a very small bore and are not compensating. Besson 983 I believe is compensating, but I am not sure if you hate compensating due to the 3+1 setup that is often present or the pressure of the redirected air through the valve set.

What many have found, including me, is that the wrist bending required to operate Yamaha piston horns of that layout is painful to the point of "nope." Something to consider.

I believe there's a Chinese copy of a Mr P...

Great suggestions. One thing I guess I should throw out there, and this is in no way meant to be pretentious. I’ve been playing for about 45 to 50 years and in all that time E flat has been my main solo and chamber instrument. I’ve owned countless top action instruments, both compensating and non-compensating. The instrument that I have actually liked the best from compensating instruments, is the Besson 984. But right now, I do not feel like putting a second mortgage on my house or selling one of my cars to order one of these. I’m just on that constant look for something that isn’t a 19 inch bell larger instrument, that has more of the solo sound that I’m looking for. The Saint Petersburg E flats are pretty good instruments, but to my taste the couple I’ve played hour slight air hogs. And one thing that I do know, is that I am being extremely picky. There are a lot of really good instruments. I’m just having problems pulling the trigger since this will probably be my last time purchasing something like this for a while. The idea of a front action YEB 321 is great, and I know someone on here used to make a couple of those. That may be the next Frankenstein horn I try.

FYI if you have 12K ready to go the Willson Gabriel Capet model Eb is stunning.

I'll second the Willson 3400S "Gabriel Carpet" recommendation. I've had mine for a year now, and it is a dream to play, my favorite instrument of any sort, ever. It's as if the instrument glows in my hands. The tone is clear and sweet, the intonation excellent. It is an ideal quintet horn, and generally a great option for any situation that doesn't call for a contrabass (though I still use a compensator for brass band).