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How many of us are convinced that everyone here understands that all/most/some of those words to mean the same thing that they mean to everyone else ?

When I hear those words used in conjunction with audio demonstrations (with my best playback equipment) I become more-and-more convinced that the agreement of the meanings of most of those words may be no more than about 50% (or less, as there are far more than "opposite" versions of resonance - as well as far more (infinite?) variables than "treble" and "bass" knobs.

I'm sure that most of us are convinced that our aural concepts related to each of those words are the "correct" concepts.

words: don't explain sororities, which is why there are sororities

charts and graphs: also are not sororities

Helen Keller (completely deaf and blind) : only understood meanings/concepts when she physically or emotionally experienced those meanings/concepts. The fact that she never heard herself nor anyone say the words - which were the labels for meanings/concepts - is (sort of) demonstrative/analogous in regards to the point that I'm attempting to convey.

bloke wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2026 1:45 pm How many of us are convinced that everyone here understands that all/most/some of those words to mean the same thing that they mean to everyone else ?

When I hear those words used in conjunction with audio demonstrations (with my best playback equipment) I become more-and-more convinced that the agreement of the meanings of most of those words may be no more than about 50% (or less, as there are far more than "opposite" versions of resonance - as well as far more (infinite?) variables than "treble" and "bass" knobs.

I'm sure that most of us are convinced that our aural concepts related to each of those words are the "correct" concepts.

words: don't explain sororities, which is why there are sororities

charts and graphs: also are not sororities

Helen Keller (completely deaf and blind) : only understood meanings/concepts when she physically or emotionally experienced those meanings/concepts. The fact that she never heard herself nor anyone say the words - which were the labels for meanings/concepts - is (sort of) demonstrative/analogous in regards to the point that I'm attempting to convey.

I don't care about any of that. All I care about is a world class sound, vociferous sub tones, and a hearty, substantive, American tone.

"We must never take these words too seriously. Words are very important, but then, if we take them too seriously... we destroy everything."

William S. Burroughs quote at the beginning of "Leave It Alone" by Living Colour.

I was recently reading forum and reviews about vintage Olds trumpets... I noticed that for the same model e. g. Super there were equal number of reviews saying it was bright and brilliant as dark and heavy.

I am pretty sure I sound like me on any instrument I play. I think as brass players or sound is 95% is and 5% our equipment. The right equipment might mean we have to work less hard to get our sound.. but I didn't think I sound particularly different on my Meinl Weston, my daughter's School kind 2341, or my sons PT6. Maybe that means I am not good enough at playing or hearing.. but that belief is good at keeping me from spending a ton of money on gear.

bloke wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2026 1:45 pm words: don't explain sororities, which is why there are sororities

You might be a victim of autocorrect. (I approve of sororities!).

But seriously: words are often vague and subjective (4/4, 5/4, 6/4 tubas), and verbal comparisons are pretty useless. That's part of why new-fangled gizmos like BIAS can be really useful: by quantifying specific instrument qualities.

Yeah... I kept fixing the word, but I missed some of them.
There's no way to type on a phone - except for those people who have that thumb skill, so I mostly voice text and correct.

Helen Keller was in a sorority?

Before this devolves into the usual thread chaos/entropy, I've got a semi-serious reply to what may have been just a troll anyway...

It's so easy to fall into the cynicism bucket and start believing that we can't dance about architecture, but we have to have a way to communicate about experience, even when it isn't measured or even sometimes understood.

The buzz words seem to change every few years when we get a new crop of "we invented everything" young fellers in, but I think we all know what we are talking about. It would be great if someone came in with a spectrum analyzer and really put some numbers behind "bright" or "dark". Plus, just to discourage crossover, I think there is some difference between how tuba and bone players talk about the sounds their respective instruments make.

But when you're buying or selling horns sight-unseen (previous troll topic) you have to have a way to talk that doesn't use the widely mocked words "Germanic" or "Teutonic". The other side is that people start talking about frequencies and overtones when they haven't measured anything at all. I'm an engineer, and I believe in numbers and measurements, but I don't think it's right to just make $#!+ up. We don't have any real data available to us. So.

But we do talk about color and agree what words like blue, green, red mean... sort of, if we're not color blind or don't use stupid color names like ecru, chartreuse or zaffru.

So I've identified the trap, examined it, and now will proceed to step in it.

Part of the problem is that sound can't be measured just on a single axis - there are multiple factors at play, not the least of which is the player himself. There's the Dark-Bright axis, and then the nearly parallel Presence-Projection axis. I think what people describe as "core" is really just an ideal middle ground on the Dark-Bright line. In the end, everything is just comparative, so the spectrum seems to run between a York with a missing water key and an English Baritone. I personally like a sound on the dark side of the center of that axis.

We all claim we're after the sound, but if I confess for myself, I can't really hear the sound. I'm always surprised when I hear myself recorded. I'm not sure I could pick my own long tones out of a group of other people playing long tones. Articulations and movement between notes may be a different story, but long tones sound very similar between accomplished players, and even between dissimilar instruments like french horn and trombone. I challenge you to identify tones without a start or end attack/release. It's harder than you think.

What I'm really after is the feel. And if there's anything even more nebulous and impossible to measure or describe than sound, it's feel. I want to feel my head and lungs vibrate. I want to see that old CRT tv dance when I play a low note. You know it when you feel it, but there's no way to describe it. I know that if it feels right, it's going to sound right. Or maybe more honestly, if it feels good enough, sound becomes secondary. How many of us play this instrument mostly because of the way it feels when it vibrates in your arms?

I avoided the word "teutonic" and the title of the thread (as one of the examples), because I figured (knowing how people work these threads) that word would be the total focus and the thread would immediately deteriorate into a bunch of (viola?) jokes.

@Bassboner and I apparently are eye to eye on this topic.

"Sorority"...? Yeah every single time I said "sonority" (which I just now had typed on my phone) it changed it to that. I guess I didn't get all of them.

My point is that none of these words mean the same thing (at least, this is my belief) to more than less than half of the people who use them.

recordings of myself:
I'm pretty sure that I don't play as well as I used to, because [1] I don't practice and [2] I'm old, but - generally - recordings of my playing...

(symphony concerts which are rebroadcast on the radio a week after the concert, church concerts uploaded to youtube, and those sorts of things)

... sound better to me than they sounded to me when I was playing them:

- When we play, we hear some "skull noise", because of what's going on right at our head in order to input the vibration into the instrument.
- On some jobs, there might be a player on stage in my vicinity who's not blending (not necessarily referring to tuning).particularly well (and I tend to find those sounds difficult to ignore), but - in a playback recording - that one person's playing isn't emphasized.
- In recordings, I'm hearing from the front of my bell - rather than from behind the bell of my instrument(s).

Bassboner wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2026 9:09 am The other side is that people start talking about frequencies and overtones when they haven't measured anything at all. I'm an engineer, and I believe in numbers and measurements, but I don't think it's right to just make $#!+ up. We don't have any real data available to us.

Sometimes there's actual value in reading others' posts.