Nickel in valves

[20IV2]

I have a severe, debilitating nickel allergy, triggered by skin contact and ingestion of a wide variety of nickel-containing foods, resulting in systemic effects including hives. I suspect, but can't really document, that playing a Yamaha trumpet with nickel-plated valves over several days may have once triggered symptoms while later playing a Carol Brass trumpet with stainless steel valves did not.

I have an interest in acquiring a flugabone and possibly a bell-front baritone horn. I have a line on a very nice Conn 138E and am also considering the Lake City (Jin Bao?) flugabone model in raw brass. Baritone-wise, I would (of course) like a Conn 20I. The flugabones mentioned both have nickel or nickel-silver external components (fewer on the Conn), to which additional lacquer, paint etc. could be applied to limit skin exposure. Removal or replacement of some components is also an option.

I'm assuming the Conn has nickel or nickel-plated valves. The Lake City has stainless steel valves, presumably containing a much lower concentration of available nickel than nickel, monel or nickel-plated valves.

Which type of valve piston: nickel, monel, nickel-plated or stainless steel might be expected to exhibit the least amount wear over time?

Do we know the metal composition of Conn Crysteel valve pistons, as in the 20I euphonium?

Somewhat related:
What is the typical metal composition of valve rotors (e.g., Miraphone or Cerveny)? Just curious.

I don't have expertise in metallurgy though my training is in environmental metal (Cd and Hg) exposure and toxicity, which makes this interesting outside of direct impacts on me, but isn't much help in the case of potential inhalation exposure through a valved brass instrument.

Thanks.

[arpthark]

Rotors are pretty much always brass, maybe with bronze casings on some older models.

Stainless steel is pretty much the industry standard these days outside of Yamaha which does the monel-type pistons and whatever they use in China, not exactly sure on that.

Outside of some few exceptions with antique instruments, pretty much every older American horn will have nickel plated pistons.

[bloke]

None of the above will noticeably wear any faster than any of the others, if you oil every time you play.

Even if you replace the Yamaha nickel plated entry level model pistons with monel pistons (perhaps of the same dimensions from a higher model), monel is still a nickel-based metal.

All the silver colored tubing that you see on lacquered brass instruments is somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% nickel... Basically a nickel-brass alloy. If you are so allergic to nickel that you are picking up nickel from the surfaces of the pistons - even though you are blowing and not sucking - that nickel brass alloy on the silver colored tubes is un-lacquered on the inside surfaces and - seems to me (??) - would cause you just as much grief.

Nickel is present in some stainless steel alloys, but only in the 3XX series alloys.

A 100% brass trumpet with stainless steel pistons made of a non-3XX series stainless steel alloy shouldn't give any trouble, - at least based on the information you have provided. (I'm about as far AWAY from an immunologist as you going to find.)

I have noticed that quite a few of the silver plated Chinese instruments are only brass underneath with no nickel-brass parts, because regular yellow brass is cheaper and it's not going to show anyway.

I believe that Carol brass are made in Taiwan ("Republic of China"), and I don't know whether your instrument is silver plated, and I also don't know whether they make their instruments out of all yellow brass when they silver plate them. (??)

[20IV2]

Thanks arpthark and bloke.

The Carol Brass trumpet that didn't seem to cause issues was lacquered brass with s.s. valves, though that was a few years ago and I'm much worse now.

I do react to prolonged contact with 316L ('surgical') used in wrist watch cases.

I'll start asking manufacturers about the stainless steel grade used in pistons. We'll see how that goes.

[prodigal]

I wish you good luck in this quest, as nickel is such a prevalent blended metal in our instruments.

My 1998 Miraphone 186CC had a nickel-silver leadipe, and my Cerveny 653 has a nickel-silver receiver as well.

[20IV2]

Thanks. This is likely a final attempt in yet another fool's errand.

I'm having fun and keeping busy with natural trumpet with nickel-free gear. I would like to play in a community band and TubaChristmas, but I guess it's not meant to be. One company I'm aware of (Schmidt) produces an entirely nickel-free piston valve Bb trumpet, but it's extremely expensive, even before tariffs, and that type of trumpet doesn't hold much appeal in any case.

Alphorn may be the next quest after I scout out some local parks for possible places to play. I'm also looking into natural (Baroque-era type) horns.

[gocsick]

I want to be very careful in my response... because I don't want it to seem like I am doubting you.. but researching your original post actually taught me a few things as a metallurgist.

Nickel allergy is a very common allergic contact dermatitis; once sensitized, some people react to small exposures, and systemic reactions from dietary nickel ingestion are documented (This is new to me!). DermNet specifically notes that nickel allergy can persist for years or lifelong and that some patients have non-contact eczema possibly related to dietary nickel, while PubMed literature documents systemic contact dermatitis after oral nickel exposure in highly sensitive groups.

Was the Yamaha trumpet valve material the causal exposure? That is much harder to draw a direct link for me. Nickel allergy is governed less by total nickel content and more by nickel ion release under the relevant exposure conditions. The Nickel Institute’s summary of EU nickel restrictions states the key point well: direct/prolonged skin contact plus enough released nickel ions is what matters; bulk nickel content alone is not the trigger variable.

The most plausible exposure routes are probably:

Direct skin contact with nickel silver, nickel-plated trim, finger rings, valve caps, slide tubes, lyre boxes, braces, etc. Sweat is chloride-containing and mildly aggressive, so this is a credible route.

Oral/mucosal contact if nickel-bearing material is near the mouthpiece, leadpipe, receiver, or if condensate carries dissolved metal ions.

Inhalation is less intuitive. Nickel metal ions have ZERO vapor pressure at ambient conditions. Any inhalation exposure would have to be via aerosolized condensate or tiny corrosion/wear particulates, not “nickel vapor.” That seems possible in principle but probably a much weaker and harder-to-document pathway than skin or ingestion.

In terms of materials for valves it is very hard to avoid Ni. Monel is roughly 60% nickel. Manufactures don't list the specific grade of stainless but they are definitely 300 series austenitic stainless (hence not or only very weakly magnetic). my educated guess is 303 which is free machining and has 8-10% Ni by spec. 304/304L and 316/316L are both going to be about 10-12% depending on the specific spec it is made to.

I am SPECULATING (just speculating)... that the actual issue is skin contact with Ni containing trim either Nickel Silver or other Ni bearing alloy. Or dissolved Ni ions in water released.. could be from slides etc. I would be surprised if there was any measurable Ni ions making their way back to you from the pistons.. if everything was well oiled.

I wish you luck.. and hope you find something that works for you!

[20IV2]

Thanks for your post, gocsick. Doubt away!

Contact dermatitis following dermal exposure is a huge issue for me and has been for many years. It's largely resolved due to careful avoidance. Brass instruments, belt buckles, watches and utensils I use are purportedly nickel-free. In any event, nothing appears to be causing symptoms at the point of contact at current exposure durations. I experience systemic dermatitis due to prolonged contact with nickel.

During my worst contact episode, laying a silver-plated Getzen trumpet across my bare legs during practice breaks a few summers ago resulted in a horrendous case of dermatitis across my legs as well as lesions popping up in random places distant from the point of exposure. It took many weeks to recover. I learned directly from the manufacturer that the trumpet did have nickel or nickel-silver ferrules that may have not been silver-plated or perhaps the plating on those components was worn away. Silver-plated mouthpieces plated following a non-nickel strike (e.g., copper) don't present any issues, at least for the models I'm using now.

Impacts from dietary exposure (primarily hives) to nickel-rich foods (oats, nuts chocolate, whole grains etc.) is a relatively recent development and I'm working with an allergist to try sort it out. I also have a number of other known food allergies (curiously, some to nickel-rich foods) and have experienced life-long food-triggered migraines, so it won't be easy. I don't eat in restaurants or other peoples' households unless I bring my own food. I'm in the middle of a multi-week flare-up. Food is a constant source of anxiety and I'm guessing I won't live long enough to see a resolution (62 now) beyond avoidance (i.e., deprivation).

Exposure via the new Yamaha trumpet with nickel-plated pistons (but no known nickel-silver tubing) is entirely speculative on my part, hypothesizing that nickel ions liberated from piston wear into condensation and/or valve oil residue could be a source of inhalation exposure. Playing that trumpet, weeks after the symptoms from the Getzen trumpet episode finally resolved, caused wheezing. I gave it away. Later, playing the new Carol Brass all-brass trumpet with s.s. pistons didn't appear to cause issues.

That's, admittedly, anecdotal evidence, but it's all I have for now.

Thanks.

[bloke]

@gocsick

I was attempting to avoid being Dr Jill as well, but was just trying to answer questions without questioning the question (which is what we tend to do).

Depending on the model of Yamaha trumpet...
Those with nickel plated pistons (found on entry-level models), I believe tend to be the same ones that have nickel plated top and bottom caps and nickel plated finger buttons. I believe they also feature nickel-plated pot metal water keys

Several of those tend to contact the skin quite a bit.

I'm not claiming 100% certainty on this, but I'm nearly certain that none of those nickel-plated parts that I just mentioned have lacquer on top of them. That's just not how manufacturers of instruments do things. They either plate something or they lacquer it.
OK...I can think of some rare exceptions such as King - whereby gold plated bell flare interiors of solid silver special order bells are then lacquered over the gold plating, and nickel plated trombone models, bell sections were then coated with clear lacquer (and Conn did the same thing with nickel-plated bell sections). Anyway those are very very rare exceptions of plating being coated with clear lacquer. My first statement is way over 99%.

So I would tend to suspect that contacting the water keys, the finger buttons, and the valve caps is the issue. Those parts are so small that they are very easy to coat with rattle-can clear, and possibly solve this person's issue with that particular trumpet. (??)

[20IV2]

Nickel-free horn and trumpet:
https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/c ... ments.html

The trumpet description mentions use of alternative materials rather than brass and nickel-silver with 'high lead' content, which doesn't sound right. Perhaps something was lost in translation.

Another horn with a musician's story:
https://www.engelbert-schmid-horns.com/ ... -free-horn

[arpthark]

Nickel-free horn and trumpet:
https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/c ... ments.html

The trumpet description mentions use of alternative materials rather than brass and nickel-silver with 'high lead' content, which doesn't sound right. Perhaps something was lost in translation.

Another horn with a musician's story:
https://www.engelbert-schmid-horns.com/ ... -free-horn

Lead is added to brass and NS to aid in machining.

[20IV2]

Is 1.5-3.5% or so for machining considered high?

Nickel-free horn and trumpet:
https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/c ... ments.html

The trumpet description mentions use of alternative materials rather than brass and nickel-silver with 'high lead' content, which doesn't sound right. Perhaps something was lost in translation.

Another horn with a musician's story:
https://www.engelbert-schmid-horns.com/ ... -free-horn

Lead is added to brass and NS to aid in machining.

[gocsick]

Pb is insoluble in both Cu and Zn. It forms little Pb globules at grain boundaries and other internal interfaces. Kind of like how of you add a little oil to water and shake it up you get tiny oil droplets throughout. When you are machining the cutting basically followed the a path that connects these Pb droplets.. It reduces the cutting force and allows the chips to break instead of becoming long strings that get tangled to in your tools. It is perfectly safe as metallic lead is not easily absorbed through skin or mucous membranes.

[20IV2]

Thanks again, gocsick.

[PRO]

I have a 1929 Holton BBb tuba with copper-plated valves. I suspect this was how they did it at the factory. Perhaps other Holton valves were made this way -- trumpets, peckhorns, baritones, etc?

Hoping that gocsick might enlighten us on properties of copper that would be beneficial in valve plating. Seems to me that there is an advantage in that the wear will be on the valve plating rather than on the valve casings. Also, copper is relatively easy to replate and to lap. What about porosity -- how does porosity affect the ability of the plating to retain lubricant?

[arpthark]

I have a 1929 Holton BBb tuba with copper-plated valves. I suspect this was how they did it at the factory. Perhaps other Holton valves were made this way -- trumpets, peckhorns, baritones, etc?

Hoping that gocsick might enlighten us on properties of copper that would be beneficial in valve plating. Seems to me that there is an advantage in that the wear will be on the valve plating rather than on the valve casings. Also, copper is relatively easy to replate and to lap. What about porosity -- how does porosity affect the ability of the plating to retain lubricant?

Yep. I’ve played a few older Holtons (mostly baritones, actually) that also feature copper valves.

[gocsick]

I had to look this up... I wish I could examine one in person or at least good pictures. Actual Cu valves or Cu played valves would be an absolute nightmare.. you would have ask kind of corrosion issues and the wear /friction properties of Cu are horrible


There is some discussion on a trumpet forum about "Cu valves in 1920s Holton trumpets" It appears the pistons were a played with a red bronze then the casings were sleeved in a Cu-Ni (guessing 90-10 German silver). Which would make sense from a corrosion and wear standpoint... It would hold oil really well too.. Apparently they didn't hold up really well long term for serious playing.. so they were often replated in Ni when it came time for a valve job. I also know that on the 1950s Holton experimented with Cu-Ni pistons as well.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/vie ... hatgpt.com

[bloke]

I've encountered a few old old H. N. White, "Gladiator". and King sousaphones (all the same factory) with copper pistons.
Honestly, they weren't that worn, even though not new condition... 80 to 100 years old.
They obviously require religious oiling - probably at least once an hour.

The patina on the copper felt very smooth against the casings.

[20IV2]

Thinking a bit about trombone slides...

Is it reasonable to assume that interior tube surfaces of chrome-plated nickel-silver (or brass) inner slides would also be plated?

Thanks.

[bloke]

I don't believe I've ever seen any plated inside tuning slide tubes on tubas, other than some with silver on them (which probably shouldn't have been put on them in the first place, and should have been removed after the plating process, in my opinion).

Inside tuning slide tubes are typically unplated yellow brass or nickel brass.