buying a dent machine

[jose the tuba player]

I am considering buying a z60 dent machine or a mini z dent machine.
My frustration at my current situation has led me to believe that I am better off buying my own equipment.
I have been in line at a shop for over 6 months now with no progress on the chemical clean or dent repair.
as of last week my 21j will now be bumped till august after school repairs are complete.
I am stuck between ordering a mini z with more tooling or a full size zz60 on a bench mount with less tooling. i have 3 conn 2xjs so im mainly working on 6/4 tuba bows and bells.
I am a mechanic by trade so i am not scared of the price tag.

[gocsick]

Sorry I didn't have an answer but I am going to piggy back on this question with a related one...

What is the bare minimum set of tools to handle most dentwork? Neglecting things like trombone handslide mandrels and valve casing mandrels. If you goal was to bang debts out of bells, bugles and valve knuckles what would you really need?

[bloke]

What is the "trick" to jazz?

[Rick Denney]

Sorry I didn't have an answer but I am going to piggy back on this question with a related one...

What is the bare minimum set of tools to handle most dentwork? Neglecting things like trombone handslide mandrels and valve casing mandrels. If you goal was to bang debts out of bells, bugles and valve knuckles what would you really need?

Ferree's used to (and may still) sell a "student" set that included a dent-ball rod, a few various dent balls to screw onto the end of it, and several valve-knuckle tools with small dent balls brazed on the end of rods of various shapes. For valve tubing, you also need a dent balls in a range of sizes that you an screw onto or otherwise attach to cables for pulling through valve tubing. I have a set of ten for 3/4" tubing that is spaced every .020", but that is really just marginally enough to do passable work. I found the rod to be a little too short for a tall-bell instrument, so I extended it by making an extension sleeve in the lathe that I can clamp in the vise. I need to mill flats on that sleeve so that the vise will grab it more securely. I've had that kit for probably 20 years, and managed to do a reasonable amount of damage with it.

The student stuff is not as polished as the regular stuff, so those balls have to be used on the inside.

I have this feeling that if one can't do passable work with that kit and unlimited time, they won't be able to do passable work with a more complete kit and unlimited time. If they can do passable work with that kit, the regular stuff will probably help them be more efficient.

Rick "suggesting the formula for success: 10% tools and 90% skill and experience" Denney

[jose the tuba player]

I bought the machine after waiting 7 months for my horns to be serviced with no progress. It will hopefully ship soon. I'll update once everything has arrived and I have made some progress.

[jose the tuba player]

Sorry I didn't have an answer but I am going to piggy back on this question with a related one...

What is the bare minimum set of tools to handle most dentwork? Neglecting things like trombone handslide mandrels and valve casing mandrels. If you goal was to bang debts out of bells, bugles and valve knuckles what would you really need?

Ferree's used to (and may still) sell a "student" set that included a dent-ball rod, a few various dent balls to screw onto the end of it, and several valve-knuckle tools with small dent balls brazed on the end of rods of various shapes. For valve tubing, you also need a dent balls in a range of sizes that you an screw onto or otherwise attach to cables for pulling through valve tubing. I have a set of ten for 3/4" tubing that is spaced every .020", but that is really just marginally enough to do passable work. I found the rod to be a little too short for a tall-bell instrument, so I extended it by making an extension sleeve in the lathe that I can clamp in the vise. I need to mill flats on that sleeve so that the vise will grab it more securely. I've had that kit for probably 20 years, and managed to do a reasonable amount of damage with it.

The student stuff is not as polished as the regular stuff, so those balls have to be used on the inside.

I have this feeling that if one can't do passable work with that kit and unlimited time, they won't be able to do passable work with a more complete kit and unlimited time. If they can do passable work with that kit, the regular stuff will probably help them be more efficient.

Rick "suggesting the formula for success: 10% tools and 90% skill and experience" Denney

I asked Tom at ferrees about tooling and did not receive any mention of a student set.

[dp]

I bought the machine after waiting 7 months for my horns to be serviced with no progress. It will hopefully ship soon. I'll update once everything has arrived and I have made some progress.

You're impatient

[catgrowlB]

^ Come on, 7 months is an unacceptable wait for a chem cleaning and dent work on a tuba. I could see a 7-month wait for a tuba refurbish/overhaul/rebuild, but not some dent work and a chem-clean that hasn't even started...

I don't blame Jose for buying the dent machine.
I myself started doing my own repairs/servicing many years ago because I got fed up with the wait/cost/incompetence of the local 'repair techs' in my area. Still need to get a good dent magnet set and do some machining.

[bloke]

That's the sort of stuff I do (once it gets to be Sept/Oct), but I'm not going to unpack/repack/ship-back repair work.

The area on the particular tuba mentioned in this sentence doesn't look perfect, but I removed some dents that someone else had said could not be removed without un-soldering the bottom bow...and yeah, it was hard.

I have been known to put people up and feed them breakfast.

[jose the tuba player]

I bought the machine after waiting 7 months for my horns to be serviced with no progress. It will hopefully ship soon. I'll update once everything has arrived and I have made some progress.

You're impatient

This was not a favor, this was a business transaction. We agreed to a price and timeline, both of which were not met. I think I was more than patient.

[jose the tuba player]

^ Come on, 7 months is an unacceptable wait for a chem cleaning and dent work on a tuba. I could see a 7-month wait for a tuba refurbish/overhaul/rebuild, but not some dent work and a chem-clean that hasn't even started...

I don't blame Jose for buying the dent machine.
I myself started doing my own repairs/servicing many years ago because I got fed up with the wait/cost/incompetence of the local 'repair techs' in my area. Still need to get a good dent magnet set and do some machining.

The most experienced techs in my area retired or are near retirement age so they don't do tuba work aside from small solder work. Im still willing to pay for good work but I'm going to be a little more upfront with my timelines.

[dp]

I bought the machine after waiting 7 months for my horns to be serviced with no progress. It will hopefully ship soon. I'll update once everything has arrived and I have made some progress.

You're impatient

This was not a favor, this was a business transaction. We agreed to a price and timeline, both of which were not met. I think I was more than patient.

[bloke]

I avoid customer disappointment such as this by trying to not agree to do more than one or two days work (hopefully a good bit less than that) on any particular instrument for any particular customer.

I'm not a refinishing shop, other than possibly one of my own instruments, maybe an instrument that I am going to sell, or - every once in awhile - I might refinish the outer body parts and touch up the finish on the inner body parts of a tuba for a customer (but probably not even all the way around the body parts, leaving the original lacquer on the portions of the outer body parts facing inward. If anything, I (might) be occasionally coaxed into refinishing a NO F attachment trombone, particularly if most of the lacquer is already gone.

... A friend of mine - who was a Katrina hurricane victim (and was given - by some foundation, I'm thinking - a brand new Bach Stradivarius trombone to replace the funky beginner quality trombone that he had managed to round up after Katrina) - came up to Memphis on the City of New Orleans train to play some gigs up here (with me and some other Katrina-displaced people who were still in Memphis). I picked him up downtown at the train station (midnight or so) and he stayed with me out here at bloke place. His Bach trombone was already showing a good bit of damage and wear (his life and accommodations back in New Orleans were pretty rough, even after the city was able to be occupied again). I took him out to the shop the next morning after breakfast (the gig we had to play wasn't until that evening) affected a complete slide overhaul, smoothed out all the dents in the bell section, and went ahead and refinished the entire trombone for him. I guess that was my little contribution to the Katrina effort(??). I had it all done in time for a late lunch.

I make appointments with customers (many of whom travel from fairly significant distances for me to work on their tubas - which seems to have become a pattern, and - with some of them - it's a very long one day drive or a pretty darn long two day drive), get them in, and get them back out. With anything smaller than a tuba (unless it's a pile of school instruments) I try to make those (often local players) into one trip repairs... Show up with your instrument and leave here with your instrument. It might take me a couple of hours to do a full-blown trombone slide overhaul, and then more time to address bell section issues. If they don't want to stay while I'm doing all that stuff, they can come on another day when they can stay. (I just don't like individual owners' repair jobs piling up around here.)

[Mary Ann]

We have gotten a new brass repair person here who does good work. I got back major fixes on the Martin Mammoth in two weeks, and the person apologized that it took so long. The only option previous to this was another person who works for the school system and it was always where / when a job could be fit into the schedule. Both do good work.

For me -- it would be worth driving a few hours to drop off an instrument at a place where I knew I could go back in a couple weeks and get it returned fixed. You can't make people do things any differently than they are going to do them. And if I had the wherewithal and the need, I too would have bought a dent machine.

[bloke]

Holding up a 25 lb tuba, while delicately ironing out bell creases (gently rotating the tuba while keeping the angle of the bell aligned properly with the ironing disc) without hitting the rest of the tuba on anything nor allowing the weight of the tuba to put in a worse crease is not for the faint of heart.

Removing and reinstalling a bottom bow is also not for the faint of heart, and neither is un-soldering a Chinese or German bottom bow cap and reinstalling it. (These are things that are routinely done prior to using a dent machine in conjunction with a tuba.)

I've heard that one shop takes the bells off the tubas - no matter what, anneals them, irons them out, and then reinstalls them.

A dent machine is not like the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show's Mr. Peabody, being able to feed the tuba - via a conveyor belt - into a time machine - taking the tuba back in time before it was dented.

tools - probably some of the most efficient ways to ruin things

[jose the tuba player]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... SMtlNkLxl0

My work so far. I still need to clean, remove lacquer and resolder everything.