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Ask yourself, do I see myself doing this and surviving the hardest years right after school, the frustrations, do I have the passion to continue, or was it just a great, fun, high school experience?

A social media post last night made me reflect on this. I see this often with students wanting to major in performance and even music education, that they had a great high school experience. If you had a good high school experience, your director did a great service to the field and you. Some win local events, have great honor bands and such, and suddenly when they get into music in college, when they study certain chords, when expectations are quite high, they quit. Or, they get a degree, don't have anything right away, and end up selling their instruments never playing again.

Before I am scolded for encouraging people not to major in music, this is a serious question you must ask yourself. If you enjoy music and the experiences, there are several great community bands and ensembles out there that can continue this. If you go to college, you can join marching bands, athletic bands, and most non-conservatory schools will even let non majors audition into their premiere ensembles. Newsflash--oftentimes these students end up in the top groups because they put the time in and treat it seriously, and might be the only thing they practice.

I have several colleagues with doctorates in performance, some I went to school with even, that don't even play anymore or work in the field of music. 9-10 years of advanced study. Success is not immediate. Success isn't pretty. Success is often a road full of potholes. Are you willing to continue down this road to get where you want to be? As I look back, my road has been tough, and I am no where close to where I want to be or envisioned. However, I am thankful I have survived and that I get to do this, through the bad, and the good. Not many are this lucky or fortunate, and I am still envious of those who have more security than I do--I have to continue to work harder to get to that point. Music and the arts are some of the hardest emotionally and financially on their workers.

noticed:

Not many of the players in the best-playing, best sounding, and best paying orchestras have been awarded instrumental music performance DMAs...

Gee, I wonder why that is.

Has anyone else heard that academia tends to ignore resumes whereby there's no DMA, and top orchestras audition committees tend to look askance at resumes whereby there is a DMA ?

...now, why in the world would that be?

As a reminder, freshman in college still don't have fully formed frontal lobes and are just trying to figure out what to do with their life while living on their own, away from family, in a new community, for the first times in their lives.

I think it is entirely reasonable for them to pursue a major based on what they enjoyed/did well with in high school, just as there should be no shame in them realizing in college that it wasn't right for them and switch majors.

I think your question is fairly unreasonable, expecting 19-year olds to be clairvoyant and know how they will respond to challenges they can't imagine facing.

Hmmm...
While the "let´s study someting we kinda enjoyed at school" approach certainly is a thing, most people I met that actually make it into conservatory studios and succeed in a musical career have taken different paths:

- Those who pursued a pro performance career knew early (in their early teens, say, by age 13) that this is what they wanted.
- Making choices about daily practise habits and choosing beneficial high school variants and extracurricular activities (master classes, summer camps, early gigs, creating gigs of their own...) tends to happen early-on.
- Preferrably, NONE of this takes place on / relies upon a basis of parental initiative / encouragement.
- Preferrably, some, but not all of that takes place with parental support.
- Even more preferrably, SOME of that takes place AGAINST peer or even parental pressures.

Students with such biographies entering college / conservatories will have more than 5 years advantage of professional preparation time against their late-deciding peers that "just felt good vibes in school". There is only so much an equally dedicated person can compensate starting at, say, 19:
Those guys don´t stop development, and nobody´s day is longer than 24 hours.

Only 27% of college grads ever end up with careers in their major.

Only 60% -70% end to in field broadly related to their major .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... heir-major

Music isn't any different from engineering. The students who end up with successful engineering careers have interests and hobbies related to engineering..... they build things.. the break things .. they read about building and breaking things ... they about their friends about building and breaking things .. the kids on my class who entered engineering because "I enjoyed high school Chemistry and math" or want a stable high paying job... don't actually last in the field . many didn't last until graduation.

Historically university studies were not job training; Today we get all big in the britches and say it is structured intellectual development. The lasting value of higher education is often not the specific content of a major, but the broader skills it builds: critical thinking, quantitative reasoning, communication, synthesis of complex ideas, and the ability to learn new domains quickly. That is why many graduates succeed outside their field of study—the degree trained them how to "people" , not just what to do.

Even arts and humanities degrees remain an economic advantage: bachelor’s degree holders earn more and have lower unemployment than non college educated- workers, although the payoff varies strongly by major.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/major-payoff

Plenty of reasons to not pursue an advanced degree as suggested in the first post:
https://100rsns.blogspot.com

It also applies to the sciences. I wasted my time and life passed me by. Don't be like me.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Wed May 27, 2026 8:59 pm As a reminder, freshman in college still don't have fully formed frontal lobes and are just trying to figure out what to do with their life while living on their own, away from family, in a new community, for the first times in their lives.

I think it is entirely reasonable for them to pursue a major based on what they enjoyed/did well with in high school, just as there should be no shame in them realizing in college that it wasn't right for them and switch majors.

I think your question is fairly unreasonable, expecting 19-year olds to be clairvoyant and know how they will respond to challenges they can't imagine facing.

Yet, so many people I know who majored in it and finished hate it. I know several band directors who haven’t played, haven’t played in an ensemble since they graduate, and this is years later. However, many people who pursue other interests, are the ones playing and who truly enjoy the instrument. I’m in a couple band director groups to help send my students jobs and opportunities, and I see a lot of posts about how directors are miserable. I know other parts of education field are messed up and torturous in many districts.

As a degree is important, we have to ask ourselves if people outside see the degree, how it will be viewed by employers if they don’t pursue it. Though I know a music degree requires more work than several others, more classes, many people don’t. I’ve had colleagues apply outside and are told their degree “is cute”. It shouldn’t be this way, but it is.

Pat Sheridan has a MBA and no graduate work in music. I’m not sure what he is doing these days besides doing educational videos for a couple of brands, but I’m sure that is helping him. I really wish performance degrees came with a minor, if not a double major, with business. I took 0 business courses, one regret, but two of my universities had top notch business schools and getting to take classes wasn’t easy. Probably my biggest regret to help my music degree.

Colby, I know several people from undergrad who finished degrees, music ed, who had great high school experiences, even took jobs, who haven’t touched their instruments in 10 years and left the field. Some make good money—seems like last time I talked to them, if they donated money to a school, it wouldn’t be the music program.

There is a phenomena that people like moving to areas they vacation to work (Florida, California, etc), and most don’t make it a year before moving back, and then they hate the place they once loved. The music field feels the same way, and we need to shine a light on this issue.

My high school students normally end up pretty good. I admit I’m tough on them, I try to help them realize it’s not all sunshine and rainbows, and I work them super hard, and they have kept their major and do well in the field. I often feel too many in the field aren’t telling students the downsides and the struggles and the realities in the music field.

Isn’t the goal to enjoy it and have a life long enjoyment?

Your question "Do I have the passion to continue, or was it just a great, high school experience?" is ridiculous for a high school student. They can't possibly know the challenges they will face in college, let alone they psychological strain of being on the audition circuit, the dedication to reach the highest levels in the practice room, or the administrative struggles they will encounter in the work place.

It's the job of their teachers (at any level) to help them become aware of these realities and guide them appropriately, either through the career or out of it. College allows them to explore their interest and discover whether it is a good fit for them or not.

I also don't judge people for changing career paths or take it as an indication of a failure (particularly due to a specific issue). There are hundreds of reasons why an individual might choose to leave music or pursue music in a different capacity than the ideal that you've outlined, most of which are highly personal and highly situational.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 6:10 am Your question "Do I have the passion to continue, or was it just a great, high school experience?" is ridiculous for a high school student. They can't possibly know the challenges they will face in college, let alone they psychological strain of being on the audition circuit, the dedication to reach the highest levels in the practice room, or the administrative struggles they will encounter in the work place.

It's the job of their teachers (at any level) to help them become aware of these realities and guide them appropriately, either through the career or out of it. College allows them to explore their interest and discover whether it is a good fit for them or not.

I also don't judge people for changing career paths or take it as an indication of a failure (particularly due to a specific issue). There are hundreds of reasons why an individual might choose to leave music or pursue music in a different capacity than the ideal that you've outlined, most of which are highly personal and highly situational.

Is this happening though? I am not going to disagree (shocker) on letting students explore, but lets dig into the original post that inspired this. A student was asking those playing in orchestras and teaching college if they live comfortably, as he was debating graduate work in another field versus music. The "survive 2 more years in gradschool" then "do a DMA to keep on the audition circuit". Bloke is right about the orchestral resume thing--I have suggested to many to do an "Artist Diploma" or "Performer's Certificate" and only do a DMA if they have aspirations in academia.

When I left my DMA, I wanted to do college teaching and a focus and emphasis on solo and chamber playing. I do that, but I also hated orchestral excerpts, as I never had a healthy approach with that or the audition circuit. Ironically, most of the enjoyable playing I do is orchestral playing. I never listened to popular music, but yet I do a lot of that now, never imagined that. I said in 2016 I would never take another audition again and yet I had a spark after subbing in a season and having talented students to learn the excerpts better myself to help them. In fact, most of things that stress me now are solo playing with piano and chamber music, maybe because I put ridiculously high expectations on me.

I never said changing career paths was a sign of failure nor do I judge. But several of the people I personally know who did music because they enjoyed it for 5-6 years down the line never want to make music again--that is a severe problem. However, still seeing kids enter college hearing how easy it is to get band director jobs, how easy it is to make it in the field, make me a bit sad.There is a lot enjoyment in the field, but there is a lot of let downs, frustrations, and it is our job in the field to make sure those entering it know it, that is, if we want to continue to have a field.

My 2¢:

https://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/w ... music.html

Maybe it's safe to say there are a lot of people out there who are very successful in other fields DESPITE having a music degree.

Maybe my original point was missed:

There are several people who enter the field because they enjoy music, to leave it and never play again. Or, they can’t see themselves not playing their instrument, and they end up being that statistic of never playing.

In terms of demand, music degrees are super involved. Most 1 hour classes meet 2-3, sometimes 5 hours a week for ensembles. Those who normally major in it go to other fields and end up good because of how hard the major is, despite how people think “it’s cute” or “always fun”.

It kind of makes me frown when even some of my past music students haven’t touched their horns in a while. I personally feel like I failed them as a teacher.

I see college as job training. I know that's really not what it is, but I think one has to approach it that way. If you were going to get yourself $15000 in debt after 4 years, I may think differently. But if you're going to go to college and get yourself into 6 figure debt, you better have a solid idea of what career you want. I fully agree with the comments about how students right after high School just have not grown physically, mentally, and emotionally to really know what how they want to spend the rest of their life. And that's a real problem considering the costs.

I used to feel pretty strongly that if a person REALLY wanted to perform, then they should be a performance major at a good school and get that "hunger" that goes along with the lack of a "job getting" degree. Nothing lights a fire under your butt to make something happen when food is on the line. But that was when colleges were $5000 a year or less. And my college was less than that. I also don't think just anybody should be a music ed major - you have to really want to do it. But if you do, I see nothing wrong with a music ed degree. That's what I got (after switching from performance in my sophomore year). And now 30 years later I am retired with a pension. There's something to be said for that.

My son, who got nearly straight A's throughout 4 years of high school - which includes honors and college level classes - is going to a community college this fall. He was easily accepted to Penn State and Pitt as an astrophysics major (and a few others), but at $40,000 a year, that's insane. And no scholarships to help. Not to mention he doesn't actually show a passion for the subject other than thinking it's cool... He's certainly smart enough, but I am not convinced he has maturity at this time to really understand what he wants, or what an astrophysicist does. So, I hope a couple years at a much cheaper college will give him some time to figure himself out. I don't know if I have given him the correct advice, but he's not paying $40,000 a year for something that's cool and interesting.

russiantuba wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 9:48 am Maybe my original point was missed:

There are several people who enter the field because they enjoy music, to leave it and never play again. Or, they can’t see themselves not playing their instrument, and they end up being that statistic of never playing.

See, I don't see this as a "problem" as you have framed it. They entered the field because they thought they would enjoy it as a career. For whatever reason (and there's a LONG list of possible reasons), they learned that they were wrong and chose to do something else. That's life, and it's actually quite healthy. It means that they aren't obsessed with their career, aren't being susceptible to a sunk-cost fallacy, and are able distance who they are as a person from their job.

Their identity and happiness is not dependent upon a decision they made as an 18 year old.

When I went to college I wanted to major in music. My parents said I would have their approval if I also majored in something more “practical.” I remember my freshman year getting placed in a brass quintet (playing trombone) with John Griffiths on tuba and three other players who were also on that level. This, along with a number of similar experiences led me to a conclusion. I could play a bit, but these folk were musicians and would always be operating on plane higher than I would ever achieve. For me, music was going to be an avocation.

It was also an insane grind because the music school was on a remote campus, so I spent half my life either studying or napping while riding shuttle buses. I finished up with a degree in naval architecture and marine engineering. I did start out in that field but migrated away after a few years. Throughout the following years I think things I learned in linguistics and history courses have served me well in engineering endeavors. Things I learned in engineering classes have served me well in other areas of life. My college years provided me with an education rather than just training. I was very fortunate to have a summer job in construction that earned me enough to pay all my college bills. This is certainly not the case for students today and I know that factors heavily into the equation.

Stefan A wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 10:05 am I see college as job training. I know that's really not what it is, but I think one has to approach it that way. If you were going to get yourself $15000 in debt after 4 years, I may think differently. But if you're going to go to college and get yourself into 6 figure debt, you better have a solid idea of what career you want. I fully agree with the comments about how students right after high School just have not grown physically, mentally, and emotionally to really know what how they want to spend the rest of their life. And that's a real problem considering the costs.

I used to feel pretty strongly that if a person REALLY wanted to perform, then they should be a performance major at a good school and get that "hunger" that goes along with the lack of a "job getting" degree. Nothing lights a fire under your butt to make something happen when food is on the line. But that was when colleges were $5000 a year or less. And my college was less than that. I also don't think just anybody should be a music ed major - you have to really want to do it. But if you do, I see nothing wrong with a music ed degree. That's what I got (after switching from performance in my sophomore year). And now 30 years later I am retired with a pension. There's something to be said for that.

My son, who got nearly straight A's throughout 4 years of high school - which includes honors and college level classes - is going to a community college this fall. He was easily accepted to Penn State and Pitt as an astrophysics major (and a few others), but at $40,000 a year, that's insane. And no scholarships to help. Not to mention he doesn't actually show a passion for the subject other than thinking it's cool... He's certainly smart enough, but I am not convinced he has maturity at this time to really understand what he wants, or what an astrophysicist does. So, I hope a couple years at a much cheaper college will give him some time to figure himself out. I don't know if I have given him the correct advice, but he's not paying $40,000 a year for something that's cool and interesting.

The pension is a huge plus!

MikeS wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 10:46 am When I went to college I wanted to major in music. My parents said I would have their approval if I also majored in something more “practical.” I remember my freshman year getting placed in a brass quintet (playing trombone) with John Griffiths on tuba and three other players who were also on that level. This, along with a number of similar experiences led me to a conclusion. I could play a bit, but these folk were musicians and would always be operating on plane higher than I would ever achieve. For me, music was going to be an avocation.

It was also an insane grind because the music school was on a remote campus, so I spent half my life either studying or napping while riding shuttle buses. I finished up with a degree in naval architecture and marine engineering. I did start out in that field but migrated away after a few years. Throughout the following years I think things I learned in linguistics and history courses have served me well in engineering endeavors. Things I learned in engineering classes have served me well in other areas of life. My college years provided me with an education rather than just training. I was very fortunate to have a summer job in construction that earned me enough to pay all my college bills. This is certainly not the case for students today and I know that factors heavily into the equation.

You could probably design a frigate better and cheaper than any of the other contractors......

I majored in Music Ed straight out of high school. I knew somewhat of what I was getting into. I wanted to teach elementary band, but I ended up in high school string orchestra, where I had to pretty much learn everything on the spot. It has been WONDERFUL!

Along the way, I've also had to teach about every variation on high school general music, including guitar, which I've come to love (Classical, that is.)
A little social studies along the way and now teaching Food Preparation and Hospitality Management.

It's been hard and frustrating at (most) times, but my orchestra students (and most, honestly of my other students) are great kids, so dealing with the crap is okay.

The pay is okay, but our area is overpriced.

PS: Your teaching position is not secured. We have positions cut in all areas each year. You must adapt.

I believe I saw early in this thread where someone mentioned that the human mind isn't developed enough by age 18 to make responsible decisions, and I would tend to agree.

People of this age more often would learn more from working entry level jobs (the skills that aren't yet developed which involve getting up every morning in time to get one's self properly groomed, in the car and off to work, maintaining a vehicle, paying bills and doing what they're told at work to accomplish what the person in charge needs accomplished, and all those sorts of things that they're really not taught in grade school or maybe even not at home) until they view the world for more of an adult perspective - perhaps age 23 or 25 or so. The problem is that - without continuously shoveling train car loads of 18-year-olds into fine arts academia - it would probably collapse.
It seems to me the world needs less than a handful of full-time tuba players every year and two or three handfuls of part-time tuba players, yet how many (in this country alone on this career path) do hapless taxpayers subsidize while struggling to pay their own bills ?
Based on how many of these people end up being employed each year as a combination of full-time and part-time paid players of the tuba, how many top-level studio teachers does this one western hemisphere nation (in which most of us reside) really need...one? two? twenty?

How short are we in regards to people working at an expert level in the trades, or even them at all? Did I hear a statistic that over 80% of Americans who work in the trades are over 50 years old, or did I hear a statistic somewhat similar to that one?

As long as people fully pay for all of the costs (not just tuition but the costs that are subsidized by others) involved in music performance training, I say all power to them, but if the rest of us are subsidizing people (again, whose brains aren't fully developed) to study to enter professions for which there's only a demand for a few handfuls - while struggling to pay our own bills and our own debts, how is that fair (as fairness seems to be the goal)?

The regulars here know my story --- violin major, ten years of not being happy with my income sources even though I was good enough for a regional orchestra, and I realized I was going to never be able to live as well as my parents had (middle class in the 50s-60s on one income.) Decided to heck with that, went and did BSEE with power option and stuck with it from age 32-39, school, work, school, work. It still cracks me up that I got a full tuition scholarship in engineering school for playing violin in the college orchestra.
Retired now, own a nice house, have a pension. I got what I needed, it was a good fit, and music for me now is a fantastic hobby. No pressure to play perfectly, I can honk around on ten different instruments at a reasonably competent level, and life is good.