a short post about instrument provenance

[bloke]

Please excuse the didactic phrasing, but if I put it in another voice, it would require a bunch of awkwardly-worded verbiage

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When considering purchasing an instrument based on its impressive provenance, realize that the or those former owner or owners sold it, rather than choosing to keep it.

If it's good it's good, if it's not good it's not good.
A very large percentage of amazingly great players have purchased some very bad instruments, but I would strongly suspect that most of them sold those instruments either shortly thereafter or after those particular instruments collected a certain amount of dust.

If it's good, buy it, create your own provenance with that instrument, and - assuming you're never able to find anything better - keep it until you can no longer play.

me...??
I've sold some remarkably fine (personal use) instruments, but I'm sort of a weirdo, in that I try to govern myself into only being a player, while trying to avoid being a collector. (I've also bought a few bad ones, during my several decades long learning process, which hasn't ended.)

my own stubborn lack of willingness to "agree to disagree":

An instrument that may be bad for someone maybe great for someone else.

I seriously doubt that, and suspect that people who hold on to bad instruments are simply oblivious.

[bloke]

I had a chance to purchase Chuck Dallenbach's gold Schilke/yamaha CC tuba that he used in the glory days of the Canadian brass. I still regret not buying it, not because it was a fantastic tuba, but because of the association with brass history.

[bloke]

I had a chance to purchase Chuck Dallenbach's gold Schilke/yamaha CC tuba that he used in the glory days of the Canadian brass. I still regret not buying it, not because it was a fantastic tuba, but because of the association with brass history.

That's fine. That defines collecting.
I'm not a critic of collectors, but I'm not one myself.

Does he still own the gold 621?
Are you referring to one that was a front action version of a cut down 321?

[bloke]

It was the 621

[bloke]

Did he end up selling it?

I bought a silver 621C (perfect new condition/used) around thirty years ago. I used it on one quintet job at a Christmas midnight mass. The next day I told a friend of mine that I was going to sell it (just offering an example here of me purchasing not particularly great tubas, just as with many others of us... I guess I could make a list of bad tuba purchase choices I've made over the years, but I don't think that would accomplish anything other than to get up some people's ire, who still own those models.) My friend bought it on the spot...(' same really low price that I had paid for it..that model was sort of still in the "latest greatest" category at that time.) I don't remember ever seeing them play it. That's not a model that I buy for resale. I've found that they're pretty hard to flip... but sure, that particular one would be interesting to a collector.

[bloke]

Yes, it was sold on the early days of Ebay. Not maybe users yet, so it didn't get much attention. I think it sold for less than $3000. It was not in my reach at that time in my life for another compact 4 valve CC tuba. I already had the piggy

[bloke]

@LeMark

$2,800 or $2,900 - a quarter century ago - was a pretty good chunk of change.

I believe Wade has told us that he took a crease out of the bell of that instrument one time when they were on tour.

[the elephant]

It was CRUSHED, and took hours to fix. The rim was punched down toward the bobbom bow about six inches all down one side. The case was destroyed. All of this customization came courtesy of the baggage gorillas at the Jackson airport.

I was appalled and stressed out by working on the gold plating, which made everything needlessly slow and difficult. I swore off plated instruments at that time. (2003)

I felt bad for charging one of my musical heroes (since the year I first switched to tuba - 1979), and I wrote up the ticket with a bargain price out of sheer embarrassment. That was stupid, of course, but it was how I felt.

It was one of the original horns, with a trick, custom Maple-leaf-shaped receiver-to-bell brace and a few other nice, custom points to admire. It played far better than any 621 CC I have ever tested.

He seemed to be very pleased with the work I did, but then he sold the horn, so maybe I F-ed it up. I never got to "interview" him about it. But hey, I got a music store to open the shop for him and do highly technical, delicate work for next to nothing on a few hours' notice, so there is that. And he sounded fantastic at rehearsal and the concert.

I have always wondered about that one…

[russiantuba]

I have seen some horns for sale where the player passed away, retired or otherwise quit music. There have been a couple of others where the artist signs with a competing company they end up representing and thus sell the good horn they have.

Ironically, these have been some of the best and most coveted instruments.

Some of my favorite posts: I’m selling this XXX model because I bought another of the same model that plays even better.

[gocsick]

I haven't owned very many tubas but I do have a provenance story. Back when I was a post doc, with a young family, no money, to and no instruments.. my wife and I really wanted to play again and were invited to play in a fun Honk! style band in New Mexico (a drinking band that sometimes marched).

For my wife, a friend had an nice Eb Sousaphone that shipped to us with the understanding we would send him $300 when we could. She used it for tuba Christmas this year and I play it for trad jazz jams and occasionally for the street band. So a great investment.

I called around and eventually found a Weril 3/4 CC at Baltimore Brass that I could afford. It was actually a tuba Dave Fedderly used to own, apparently he owned a houseboat and kept this tuba on it. At some point he sold it to a student who later put it up for sale with Dave. It didn't move for a long time.. so Baltimore Brass was willing to let it go cheap and even worked a payment plan for me as long as I gave about 25% down and paid shipping upfront. That was my only tuba for about 10 years.. I played the snot out of it... but when I joined the current group I really needed a BBb sousa... The little upright bell didn't put out the volume to be heard over 20 musicians outdoors. After that it sat mostly unused, I traded it for a like new Schiller Euphonium, and some Euphonium)
/ trombone mouthpieces (plus a lot goodwill because they later made me a sweetheart deal on a literally new Wessex baritone). That person decided tuba wasn't for them and recently ended up selling it to Brendan Ige... It really was a great little tuba, I hope Prof. Ige enjoys it as much as I did.

[aarongsmith]

Some of my favorite posts: I’m selling this XXX model because I bought another of the same model that plays even better.

I did that, but it was because of some modifications to the stop arms were done on my previous Rudy that made maintenance a pain. Whoever did the original work in reversing the rotation of 3 and 4 used a very thin brass shim that made the stop arms a pain to get on and off. Plus it was ready for some new parts that were tough to get from Rudy, even Lee was having trouble at that point. My current was nicer, had the same modifications from the factory, and only needed a little bell repair. They played similarly though side by side.

Neither was bought for provenance, but a Rudy 5/4CC had been a dream horn for me since I tried one in undergrad. I've just been fortunate to own two really excellent ones.

[bloke]

Some of my favorite posts: I’m selling this XXX model because I bought another of the same model that plays even better.

I did that, but it was because of some modifications to the stop arms were done on my previous Rudy that made maintenance a pain. Whoever did the original work in reversing the rotation of 3 and 4 used a very thin brass shim that made the stop arms a pain to get on and off. Plus it was ready for some new parts that were tough to get from Rudy, even Lee was having trouble at that point. My current was nicer, had the same modifications from the factory, and only needed a little bell repair. They played similarly though side by side.

Neither was bought for provenance, but a Rudy 5/4CC had been a dream horn for me since I tried one in undergrad. I've just been fortunate to own two really excellent ones.

I have to admit that my 5/4 (de facto 6/4 with a larger-than-typical-6/4 bore size, obviously) 5-rotor PLUS #2 trigger Rudy Meinl C was the (unlike what one might expect) MOST IN TUNE 6/4 size C tuba that I ever owned...and I owned SEVERAL of them...far superior intonation as compare to Rudy's 3/4 (de facto 4/4) and 4/4 (de facto 5/4) sized C tubas.

I take it that someone swapped out your stop arms, rather than altering the oem stop arms to receive the replacement linkage.

[the elephant]

For sale after retirement or death:

Kept by them until the end, and probably for a good reason. If you are interested in the instrument, I see this as something adding to that interest.

For sale BY them while still actively playing:

Bought by them but eventually passed on to others, so good enough to attract them, but faulty enough to sell. Keep in mind that "faulty enough" could imply "a change in personal goals or tastes". Generally, you do not see a pro buying a horn that they will eventually sell because something about it sucks badly enough to later give up on it. Pros tend to be able to sniff out such issues when play-testing and will pass on such instruments in order to sink their money into better work tools. If the horn is actually "faulty enough" to sell, then they usually will pass on it rather than dropping many thousands of dollars on it in the first place.

There are very few "known" players who have enough money at hand to simply buy horns to trial for a year or so. These guys are known flippers who constantly buy and sell horns. I view them as having too much money and not enough hobbies to spend it on, heh, heh…

[aarongsmith]

Some of my favorite posts: I’m selling this XXX model because I bought another of the same model that plays even better.

I did that, but it was because of some modifications to the stop arms were done on my previous Rudy that made maintenance a pain. Whoever did the original work in reversing the rotation of 3 and 4 used a very thin brass shim that made the stop arms a pain to get on and off. Plus it was ready for some new parts that were tough to get from Rudy, even Lee was having trouble at that point. My current was nicer, had the same modifications from the factory, and only needed a little bell repair. They played similarly though side by side.

Neither was bought for provenance, but a Rudy 5/4CC had been a dream horn for me since I tried one in undergrad. I've just been fortunate to own two really excellent ones.

I have to admit that my 5/4 (de facto 6/4 with a larger-than-typical-6/4 bore size, obviously) 5-rotor PLUS #2 trigger Rudy Meinl C was the (unlike what one might expect) MOST IN TUNE 6/4 size C tuba that I ever owned...and I owned SEVERAL of them...far superior intonation as compare to Rudy's 3/4 (de facto 4/4) and 4/4 (de facto 5/4) sized C tubas.

I take it that someone swapped out your stop arms, rather than altering the oem stop arms to receive the replacement linkage.

I've got the 2nd valve trigger on the new one, and it's really just for fine tuning. I agree with you that these horns are really in tune and just take a little finesse here and there.

They appeared to be stock, but poorly "re-keyed" for the new rotation. The linkage was the RC car ball joints that a few people were using years back which worked, I just never got around to making some covers for the threaded rod out of some brass tubing. It was functional, for certain, just a chore come cleaning time.
I actually bought a lead pipe for that horn and never had it put on. I was just to busy, but at least I have a spare now.

The second Rudy belonged to John Cradler's brother-in-law who used it in a bunch of orchestras, but I only found that out after a conversation with John after I bought it. Does that count as provenance?

[bort2.0]

John Voight's tuba

[Bob Kolada]

I had a chance to purchase Chuck Dallenbach's gold Schilke/yamaha CC tuba that he used in the glory days of the Canadian brass. I still regret not buying it, not because it was a fantastic tuba, but because of the association with brass history.

I never saw it, but I used to play with (and for once) a gentleman in Chicago who owned Chuck's Thein contrabass trombone. iirc he told me he had it lengthened to Eb (not Chuck).
I think I saw my old Kanstul contra for sale at Horn Guys a while back, but as I have no provenance did not bother asking them.

[bloke]

I've got the 2nd valve trigger on the new one, and it's really just for fine tuning. I agree with you that these horns are really in tune and just take a little finesse here and there.

For a C instrument it would be C-sharp, and for my (as I've recently "gone amateur") B-flat instruments, it would be B-natural...

...but (the way that most 5-valve tubas are configured in the modern era) 5-2-3 is too long, and (as they stand for most other pitches) 2-4 is too short.

With my big 5-valve B-flat (no second slide trigger), I've decided that lengthening the #4 circuit ALMOST long enough for an in-tune B-natural, playing C 1-3 (as my hand stays on the #1 slide) helps B-natural much more than it hurts low-F.

With my compact B-flat (which I built) the 5th circuit is a long SEMItone, whereby B-natural is spot-on with 5-1-3 and low E is spot-on with 5-4.

Since more low E-flats appear on modern arrangements and compositions, my upper #4 slide has a stop on it (which stops precisely where 5-2-4 plays low E-flat in tune, and (of course) 2-3-4 does a pretty good job of covering low D.

...I just don't encounter that many low D-flats (or other pitches below D) but that (even with the 5th only being an F semitone valve) I still have more longer valve combinations available - for composers/arrangers who don't have a lick o' sense.

With a B-flat instrument, the G whole tone valve (becoming an F whole tone valve on a B-flat instrument) isn't anywhere as urgently required, as the main call for that valve on a C instrument is to be able to reliably play a low F in tune - whereas low F on a B-flat instrument - well... - is (simply) 4th valve...
...thus: the "Well...I might as well use the 5th valve to solve ANOTHER problem" mindset - that being (again) solving the 5-2-3 vs. 2-4 (neither being spot-on) dilemma.

[humBell]

Please excuse the didactic phrasing

...

If it's good, buy it, create your own provenance with that instrument, and - assuming you're never able to find anything better - keep it until you can no longer play.

...

I seriously doubt that, and suspect that people who hold on to bad instruments are simply oblivious.

You're excused!

Wait... someone might care that i once owned something?! Perhaps, but i guess i'll believe it when i see it.

Sometimes i think oblivity is a secret to sanity in an unfair world... and virtue is triumphant only in theatrical performances.

If i keep a bad instrument, i'll justify it as "taking one for the team". Like the Dude: takin' it easy for all us sinners out here. Or a challenge to work on figuring out how to play everything, or how come it don't work right.

Any... i'll wait for the long post before i figure out a useful opinion on the subject.

Provenance is still worth listening to for its own sake.

[2nd tenor]

I have seen some horns for sale where the player passed away, retired or otherwise quit music. There have been a couple of others where the artist signs with a competing company they end up representing and thus sell the good horn they have.

Ironically, these have been some of the best and most coveted instruments.

^^ I think that a good a guide, one to remember and follow. Having the same instrument as a star player won’t make you a better player, but someone whose reputation and income depends on playing well is (assuming that they have the necessary funds) unlikely to hobble themselves with a poor instrument. After that there are particular personal choices and preferences that work well for some people and less so for others.

^^ just my opinions.

[bloke]

If someone doesn't play well enough to be able to tell a stinker from an eyewinker, then it doesn't matter, does it?

They might as well pick up a stinker (that some known player bought, played for a ten minutes, cursed at, and sold...hopefully not to one of their own students ) and then be able to brag to their section mates in regards to its former ownership.