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I just recently played another quintet arrangement that featured some slow moving and exposed high trumpet minor thirds in the trumpets..

What tends to happen - and I don't pretend to be able to explain why - is that whatever overtone series features that minor third - up in its 5th/6th or 6th/7th partials somewhere - tends to trigger the sounding of the fundamental pitch of that overtone series. Often that fundamental pitch has nothing to do with the chord being played by the ensemble, and is often also out of tune and ugly sounding to boot.

Those of you who understand the physics of acoustics can explain it to us if you wish to do so, but I think the most important thing is to try to not write high minor thirds - at least not slow ones, and at least not those that are not covered up by the rest of the ensemble - for trumpets.

Two piccolo trumpets playing slow high minor thirds is/are the worst.

But it "sounds good" in Finale

I'm not a bad arranger, but I don't do much of it. Wade is excellent, because he does quite a bit of it - as well as being clever and talented. I personally just don't have enough imagination to be a composer. The only things I know about arranging - and funny little points such as the one I brought out in the original post - are out of experience as a player of music.

Combination tones. Hindemith had a bit to say about them, if you ever dive into his Craft of Musical Composition.

arpthark wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 12:50 pm Combination tones. Hindemith had a bit to say about them, if you ever dive into his Craft of Musical Composition.

I haven't. I should. Thanks.

bloke wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 12:56 pm

arpthark wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 12:50 pm Combination tones. Hindemith had a bit to say about them, if you ever dive into his Craft of Musical Composition.

I haven't. I should. Thanks.

This is the same effect that some arranging textbooks have mentioned to score tuba and bass trombone a 5th apart instead of an octave to create an octave undertone.

Performers used to (and need to be more) criticize compositions and arrangements. Historically, the best pieces are those of the composers who learned these tricks and took musician feedback.

Tuning-schmooning. I just press and blow.

the elephant wrote: Sun Jun 08, 2025 7:25 pm Tuning-schmooning. I just press and blow.

The 1920s Martin catalog I have says my horn has perfect intonation so I’ve stopped paying it any attention.

The most miserable time I ever had with two trumpets playing high parallel minor thirds for an extended period of time was when there is another trumpet player who was playing a concerto for trumpet and brass quintet, and the slow movement featured the two accompanying trumpets in the quintet playing as described above pretty loudly for at least 30 or 40 seconds if not longer, and I was sitting right next to that stuff and hearing these weird ugly sort of "bad bassoon sounding" out-of-tune/out-of-context low pitches that were generated underneath the minor thirds - pitches that no one was actually playing.

It's one of the difference tones. When you mix two tones, you get also the sum and the difference. You're hearing the difference. It only occurs inside the human ear, and won't show up on a scope (I'm told.)
So -- if you subtract the frequency of the lower minor third from the frequency of the upper minor third, that is the frequency of the difference tone you are hearing. It happens with higher notes because with lower pairs the difference tone is below the level your ears can detect.

yep.

Maybe a third of the time, it happens to be a pitch that fits in the chord, but - roughly half of that 1/3 - it's not in tune.

It seems to be this particular interval with the trumpets that triggers it.

Yes, the sum, the difference and the two originals. I taught this stuff five days a week at the Army signal school. This is the basis for extracting the audio information from RF radio waves. It's called hetrodyne.

AM radios, for example, have a local oscillator ganged to the tuning circuit that is 455 khz different than the incoming RF. That produces a 455 kHz intermediate frequency that is filtered out of the RF, then the audio is filtered from that. Really sophisticated radio receivers will do this process more than once, called double or triple conversion. This eliminates unwanted image frequencies, which is what Bloke speaks of in minor thirds with trumpets. In the case of a single conversion AM radio the image frequency will show up 455kHz below whatever you're tuned to. For example when tuned to KOMO a 1000 kHz clear channel station, you could hear audio from the station 455kHz below 1,000 or 545. In Seattle KVI is the closest to that at 570kHz. The FCC has been careful not to assign Clear channel stations that are 455Khz apart for that reason. Arrangers should be as careful.

It's not just in your ear, it's real. This is why it's said that harmony singing produces an extra voice, two in three part or more in barbershop.