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the elephant wrote: Sun May 03, 2026 5:14 pm Look at all you tuba players, trying to look smart to each other…

...about a bass clarinet solo...

bloke "At least, I admitted publicly that I'm NOT smart."

And my point was that you are using that speculation to justify a hard stance on an interpretation choice, which is flawed logic (even if I don’t disagree with the end conclusion).

The fact of the matter is that there is not a single person on this forum who definitively knows how Gershwin would respond to how people perform his music today, and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise.

What is so hilarious - in regards to every time the decision is made prairie-dog here - is that there's the non-controllable personality quirk of simply not being able to leave something alone, and - that being the case - it's an infinitely-troll-able type of thing (as long as I'm here at the laptop, typing out invoices, sending overdue notices, paying bills, answering emails, etc.)


for everyone else:

Here's a Conn low E-NATURAL bass clarinet (from the the end of the era discussed) YET with a D (concert C) extension (super rare ).
This instrument COULD HAVE ACTUALLY played the (preferable - at least - to my ears) concert C in the solo.

Notice (for those who know enough to know) that the instrument is obviously styled after Selmer, Paris - including the neck-mounted (proper acoustical location) upper octave vent.



Other than the rare D extension, this is the same as those that we bought to rent out to middle school students.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Sun May 03, 2026 5:25 pm And my point was that you are using that speculation to justify a hard stance on an interpretation choice, which is flawed logic (even if I don’t disagree with the end conclusion).

The fact of the matter is that there is not a single person on this forum who definitively knows how Gershwin would respond to how people perform his music today, and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise.

Does this mean we should totally ignore the style that EVERY OTHER INSTRUMENT sets up prior in the entire piece? So, related to the topic, I took a lesson with your teacher of 6 years, Mickey Moore. I did the Penderecki, which is unmetered, and should give the performer some freedoms. I took it fast, had an article by Wrobleski in an interview with the composer, and Mickey Moore came in and said I was too fast and I had to play "what is on the page, nothing more". I had the article on me and he said "I don't care what Penderecki said, it isn't on the page. He wrote tempo a la pollaca, which is 88bpm, and you can't go faster". A few weeks later, I auditioned for his classmate Jim Akins, who ironically said the same thing about the tempo. He said, however, that he played it for Penderecki (I have the recording), and Penderecki wanted him to take it much as fast as he had prepared and what was on the page, and ironically I found out later that many of the things I was doing, simply from listening to composer intent and writings, and other pieces I had listened to of Penderecki. Jim was way more open minded but still told me to consider being able to do it both ways in case the composer changed his mind again in the future.

We don't know what the composer would thing or how we would respond, however, composers often have strong artistic visions (have a great story from a friend I met on the old board on a piece of his premiered by a premiere military band). However, flutter tongues, scoops, grace note blips, etc, don't match the styles of the other instruments who have these parts. Part of what I am realizing as I get older is to match what the other instruments are doing, with it being instinctive, or at least quickly adaptable. In addition, having an orchestral solo is way different than being a soloist in front of the orchestra.

Also, when able, ask the composers what they wanted, notate it, so it gets marked down correctly in history (at least we did that with Gregson in the journal).

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Sun May 03, 2026 3:08 pm If this were true (and there was confirmed evidence showing this was Gershwin's opinion), then we would have likely seen the tuba solo reverted to the bass clarinet in the critical edition, since this is a non-issue for the ubiquitous modern bass clarinet. It's also possible that this was Gershwin's opinion but the Gershwin Initiative considered the preponderance of performance practice on tuba to outweigh this opinion, or that Gershwin's opinion on the matter changed on the issue over time, so left it in the tuba part. Without consulting the Gershwin Initiative, all of this is purely speculative.

Let's actually address this. So, it is pretty well known fact in the musicology world, that Gershwin struggled with orchestrations, and earlier works had Grofe and Whiteman do most of that. If I recall correctly from research years ago, American in Paris was one of the earliest orchestrations that Gershwin himself did. So, seeing how there was a bass clarinet solo after the tuba solo, and as per the critical edition I shared had this in the bassoon at one point. It is very possible that as this was an earlier piece that Gershwin did, he experimented around with the instruments to pass around the melody with, which could have resulted from the instrument playability. A lot of composers I have worked with, some more recognizable names now, have been very receptive on these things. We had Carter Pann out, and he mentioned the 2nd tuba part of his symphony wasn't originally so low, and he wrote the parts to balance the band. When one of the tubists who premiered the work at University of Colorado asked if they could take some parts down an octave, he exclaimed that he didn't realize tuba could play pedal Cs for longer periods of time, or other composers realizing things are too difficult and re-orchestrate. Being an earlier orchestration, I tend to believe this, and supports why it stayed in the critical edition, as he was a newer orchestrator.

russiantuba wrote: Sun May 03, 2026 7:01 pm Does this mean we should totally ignore the style that EVERY OTHER INSTRUMENT sets up prior in the entire piece?

Not even in the slightest, and it's ridiculous to suggest that is what I was implying. Every comment I have made so far has been about the reasoning behind our interpretation justifications and cautioning against taking rigid stances, particularly when based on speculation. If anything, it is more reasonable to make an interpretation based on what is going on around you in the orchestra than uninformed assumptions about composer's intent.

At no point had I clearly stated my preference on how it should be played. Believe it or not, I agree that it should be kept simple unless there's a good reason not to.

Your Penderecki example really doesn't change anything for me. Music is subjective, many people have different opinions on how to play things, and composers change their mind. Some composers have very strong artistic visions, while many others are flexible to what musicians think will work better.

One of the problems with "this is what the composer wanted so it can't be played any other way" is that it ignores the orchestra around you, the audience in front of you, and the player behind the horn. All of those things change over time and are unique to each performance. I would rather play something convincingly but "wrong" to the composer than to try to play something faster than I can and sound like crap.

Re: your bass clarinet/tuba comment - I agree that this might have been one of the reasons the Gershwin Initiative kept it in the tuba. Pretty much everything you said falls under the part were I said "or that Gershwin's opinion on the matter changed on the issue over time". My point was the Gershwin Initiative probably had historical justification for their decision, as opposed to the speculation being put forth.

I don't intensely dislike you like I do the other guy, so your hypothesis is likely more reasonable even though it's about the same.

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I'm sort of a Bix Beiderbecke fan (as he and his parents lived a couple of blocks away from my mother's and my grandparents' house when my mother was a little girl - the last few years before the "Roaring Twenties"), and anyone who knows anything about him and his amazing cornet playing knows about - saxophonist - Frankie Trumbauer, that Mr. Trumbauer (who also had previously worked in a small combo with young Mr. Beiderbecke prior to both of them really making the big time) was also in the Paul Whiteman Band (as was Beiderbecke) during the time when American in Paris was a brand new piece of music, and that he (Trumbauer) doubled on bassoon (and - very likely - the other woodwinds as well).
Of course, at least one of Whiteman's woodwind players had a bass clarinet and of course Whiteman had a tuba/bass man (it was actually Mike Trafficante, but there was also a backup bass player I believe), so (more well known in America at that time than any purely "classical" orchestra) any orchestration written especially for that band (which was sort of an orchestra, because Whiteman carried three or four fiddles) could have featured any of those three instruments on that final solo instrument playing of that motif.

Just in case anyone doesn't think that Ferdinand Grofé (Whiteman's composer/orchestrator) was a big deal, in 1928 Paul Whiteman paid him $375 weekly, which - in today's money - is about $8,000 bucks.. Trumbauer made $200 weekly with Whiteman that year (as did Beiderbecke), which is roughly $5,000 in today's money.

The way things were originally written in that era to be played by ensembles such as Whiteman's - as well as pit orchestras and pickup orchestras for concerts and recordings - weren't necessarily cast in stone and - if we can believe what we've heard - different instruments played the serpent/ophicleide/tuba parts of Berlioz's pieces when he toured with his music in Europe roughly a century earlier, depending on who owned what instrument and which orchestra, yes?

As one might have guessed, Whiteman's band was the first to perform and record the Grand Canyon Suite. That beautiful majestic theme in the "Cloudburst" movement played by unison trombones was originally played by one solo trombone with a Humes and Berg Solotone mute inserted in their bell and with slide vibrato. (a bit shocking to hear, compared to what one expects to hear)

Anyway, as I've tried to show that that last solo statement of that motif isn't necessarily "our" solo (Intergalactic Tuba Day or no), we also shouldn't feel like we can take more liberties with it (including crapping all over it by players who barely know how to spell Gershwin's name) beyond the sentimentality obviously implied and built into the phrase itself.

Curiously, as closely associated as Paul Whiteman was with George Gershwin, the Whiteman Band didn't record it until the early 1950s, around the same exact time that the Gene Kelly/Leslie Caron movie came out:
(surely, cashing in on the two-decades-old piece of music being brought back around into super-popularity via the Gene Kelly movie).

By then, it was a tuba solo and no, neither did that tuba make an ass of himself, and - simply - they played the ink:
(15:50)



Even though this recording was released just about simultaneously with the Gene Kelly movie, it was MGM (Hollywood) musicians who recorded the soundtrack.

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I sort of picked up on the fact that enough bullsh!t has been said about that stupid tuba solo in American in Paris (probably performed on YouTube and Facebook by hundreds of expert young scholars), so I sort of broadened the subject - hoping others might take up on the broadening and broaden it even more.

Perhaps one of our brand new members, "misfit" might care to chime in on the subject.

This evening my wife and I dug out the DVD of the 1951 Kelly/Caron musical, turned up the stereo, and immersed ourselves in Hollywood's version of 1950 Paris. I know it was 1950 because there is a 1950 Mercury used as a taxi. But I digress... This was made during the post-war exuberance that lasted until I got drafted to Viet Nam. Well, maybe not quite that long but well after the war. In any case the musical and its scores are exuberant. In the dream sequence that is the last 17 or so minutes of the film, the orchestra punctuates the dancers moves and often seems over the top. But it works. It makes us happy. Great excursions of fantasy show up on screen, accompanied by similar excursions in the orchestra. This is far from Gershwin's original score and it is totally in character with the film.

Were I the conductor, would I suggest taking it to that limit for a Saturday evening concert with other American music? Probably not. But I would not feel bound to playing Gershwin's original score with its original dynamic and rhythmic notations particularly with a couple of excellent reed players and a knock-out lede trumpet. There is room for artistic interpretation in performance.

Having seen what Vincente Minnelli et. al. did with their interpretation of Gershwin's music and Kelly's dance I'm not going to second guess. It won 6 academy awards. Sigh, But if the conductor says play the ink and conducts a sub dude version, that's probably what I'll do. The dress rehearsal's Thursday.

So everyone is in agreement then?

1) Play it as written

2) Keep it musical

3) Don't make an ass out of yourself or piss off the conductor.

That sounds like good advice all around....

The original topic is the tuba solo, and (again, trying to stretch away from that topic) I've not studied the score and I've only played the piece a couple of times in my life (it doesn't seem to be programmed that often (ironically, it was the first piece that my daughter played in her first concert at Eastman, and Dick Kilmer assigned her the principal oboe part - "Of all the underclassmen in the underclassmen orchestra, I just felt like she was the most ready to take on the principal oboe parts in the first concert of the year" ). Back when plane tickets were cheap, I flew up there, rented a car in Buffalo for twenty bucks, sat in the mezzanine with Bill, and listened to her play it. I didn't pay much (likely: no) attention to the tuba solo, but I'm sure I would have remembered it had they gotten stupid with it.
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I may be imagining things, but - in the movie version (when I've watched the movie) - I've sort of wondered to myself if some of the piece was arranged somewhat (with some sections slightly extended, to fit with what Gene Kelly wanted to do, choreography-wise). People who know the piece better can tell me whether or not the entire piece was played as originally orchestrated for large orchestra, or whether it was somewhat arranged for the movie.

gocsick wrote: Mon May 04, 2026 5:27 am So everyone is in agreement then?

1) Play it as written

2) Keep it musical

3) Don't make an ass out of yourself or piss off the conductor.

That sounds like good advice all around....

Yeah, for all the pissing-match to and fro, everyone seems to agree on those points.

A composer does not entirely own the performances of his works. Examples of that abound, and I'll leave it at that.

I stand by my earlier comment about what the music portrays--a reflective moment (among many) amid the bustle of big-city life. The music is composed as a tone poem and, movie notwithstanding, is intended to tell a story. The tuba sound, even if not exclusively, is more than capable of transmitting that moment of reflection.

We were challenged to post our own performances. Okay, at great risk, I will do that (solo at 6:15).

https://youtu.be/C95amIZnXOM?si=sQWjVL_F4CGhuq_h

Obviously, this is an amateur community band playing some joker's wind-band arrangement, and the performance was over a decade ago. Yup, I put some grace notes in there, just as did the clarinet when she had her turn at this lick, but didn't really add any other "decoration" beyond some tenutos that were encouraged by the conductor. Nope, I did not jazz it up nearly as much as did the trumpet player. Yup, our conductor is a tuba player well-known in traditional jazz circles, and his movements on the podium certainly encouraged the swingy bits that were in the middle of the work. His choice--he'll get the blame if the performance falls flat, not Gershwin. My mental story idea was the last street cart making the last slow journey in the wee hours of the morning before lights out.

Rick "there would be more (unintended) vibrato these days" Denney

I'm hungry.

The trumpet passage - to which I suspect you refer - is written that way. Noticed is that all trumpet players play at the same way (LOL unless they goof it up).
That's a jazzy section of the piece.

The section which is brought to a conclusion by a solo tuba (in the orchestration played by virtually everyone today) is not.

I've already had my breakfast (every morning, Mrs. bloke brings me coffee, two pieces of bacon, and two gently fried eggs... She's a goddess), but I want to finish that Conn 11J (Olds-built) tuba, get cleaned up, look at some of these tricky passages and 32nd note contrabassoon cues in this band director band concert (not hard, they're just modular downward runs - as in "mode") that are about an octave and a half long each) I'm playing tonight, and need to be ready to leave hours before call for the concert, because I have a repaired JP sousaphone and a repaired Eastman tuba to drop off with two different band directors on the way.

Trolling - while watching Perry Mason and petting Covid the cat- is fun, but I've answered all the business related texts and emails, and it's time to get out to the shop.



Notice that after his epic surgery and complete recovery, he's no longer a super skinny cat. He's a very normal sized and shaped cat. Yeah that's me under there. He's my love-cat.