Federal student loans and music majors…

[bisontuba]

Anybody possibly affected by this?

Federal student loans are not banned by entire major, but specific low-earning college programs risk losing eligibility under new Department of Education rules. Under the Department of Education STATS Rule, programs failing post-graduation earnings benchmarks lose federal Direct Loan access.

High-Risk Fields
• Cosmetology and personal care
• Visual and fine arts
• Social work and counseling
• Religious and divinity studies
• Music and performance degrees
• Early childhood education and teaching aides
• Culinary arts and trade certifications

[TubaPadawan]

Notice that Mathematics is missing as prerequisite for every one of these lower earning fields. The irony in the field of music is that resonance and harmonics and music theory in general is very mathematical in nature. Tons of Trigonometry, Algebra, and Calculus involved, not to mention the Physics of playing an instrument like the Tuba. Imagining a ball tracing a sinusoidal wave with low or high amplitude can be a good visual for Arnold Jacobs "Song and Wind" slow air for soft tones and fast air for loud tone.

[bloke]

I hate to think of all the music conservatory and snooty-poot university "school of music" six-figure l($1XXXXX / $2XXXXX) loans that barely legally-adult people and their naive parents (now: with adjunct teaching jobs and $XXXX orchestra jobs)! are struggling to try to get paid, and maybe even having to have their aging parents and spouse's incomes help them pay the payments.

When they were in high school, everyone was telling them they were musical geniuses, because they were in the all-state band and stuff, and now they're faced with these debt albatrosses whereby many of them have gone off to do other things - and probably have additional debt for being trained for viable occupations.

I feel sure that there are still affordable payment federal loans available for people going to two-year colleges to get the first two years of their band director degrees and then going on to state universities to get the other two years of their band director degrees.

Maybe we shouldn't be protecting people from their own ignorance and their own exuberant optimism, but this is really serious (sort of runs a lot of lives, at least financially), and it involves all of us, because all of us are loaning crippling amounts of money to many people who may never be able to pay it back (yet not economically sophisticated enough nor job market sophisticated enough to understand that when they sign on the dotted line).

Even doctors and lawyers have trouble paying off crazy large tuition loans of this size. This isn't Democrat or Republican, this is reasonableness. Were it that any president - who I would never vote for - pushed for this measure, I would be enthusiastically for it.

Economics 101:
Precipitously cut back on the available avalanche of money to buy something, and the PRICE of that something will soon drop precipitously .

All of that said, I know a political troll thread when I see one, but so what? Like I've said many times, NOTHING here is nearly as political as stating that some make and model of tuba doesn't play well, isn't built well, or plays badly out of tune.

[tubanh84]

Even doctors and lawyers have trouble paying off crazy large tuition loans of this size. This isn't Democrat or Republican, this is reasonableness. Were it that any president - who I would never vote for - pushed for this measure, I would be enthusiastically for it.

I want to highlight this to make sure it's said loud and clear. I went to music school and then I went to law school. When I entered law school, we were told firms are hiring and throwing money at lawyers. Don't worry. Pay what you need to pay to go to the best school that accepts you. That was in 2007, which students of history can tell you was a year before the financial crash. Firms stopped hiring. There was far too many students and grads than the economy could take in year after year for several years.

Luckily in 2007 I was stupid, so I went to the third-ranked school I got into because I got a scholarship.

But since 2008, it hasn't really gotten better. People graduate law school with hundreds of thousands in debt from college and law school. They spent their careers paying it off. And that's in a field where you're expected to be able to make money! And these people with these law degrees kill themselves to figure out the terms and conditions of their repayment plans, forgiveness programs, and the like.

I can't imagine going into that same debt in music. And the top conservatories create that same debt.

[catgrowlB]

Back when I was in college [1999 - 2004, (attended the first college for one year, then transferred and finished out at the second college)], I had some type of music scholarship at both, plus student loans, and also did work study. 'Work study' involved me working in the music library, office, and doing stage crew. It helped a little toward paying off college. I finished paying off my student loans several years ago.

That said, the costs of college/university has skyrocketed over the years. And music gigs and opportunities have greatly dwindled over that same time The future for music seemed so much brighter 25 years ago. If I were to go to college or technical school today I'd probably go into some type of trade, or do instrument repair, or something with animals

[bloke]

I believe it depends on how hooked up a lawyer is.
In Memphis there are tons of an ambulance chasers and they use a whole bunch of staff type lawyers, I think they sort of get less than half the lawyer portion of the settlements, assuming there are settlements.

[Grumpikins]

Anybody possibly affected by this?

Federal student loans are not banned by entire major, but specific low-earning college programs risk losing eligibility under new Department of Education rules. Under the Department of Education STATS Rule, programs failing post-graduation earnings benchmarks lose federal Direct Loan access.

High-Risk Fields
• Cosmetology and personal care
• Visual and fine arts
• Social work and counseling
• Religious and divinity studies
• Music and performance degrees
• Early childhood education and teaching aides
• Culinary arts and trade certifications

So what exactly is meant by "low-earning"?

Is that in reference to low income careers ?

I mean, when I get a haircut that takes less than 15 minutes of labor and it costs $20-30. Three of those an hour is a lot more than I make as a machinist. And when my regular girl broke her foot, I couldn't get in anywhere for 3 months because all the shops i called were booked up. That falls under cosmetology.

My wife started working as an aid at our elemtary school last year and they can't find enough teachers and aids to fill needed positions. Yes they do not pay well, but it's a good career and necessary.

My intent is not to argue. I agree that some career paths need to be thinned out because there is little to no demand for those jobs. Higher education should be geared toward filling "in demand" jobs, not an overabundance of candidates for a "low demand" career market.

I had a conversation with my father about this. He said when he was in high school, 1960s, students were funneled into job training classes based on the local market. He started training in engineering because there was a high demand for engineers ( engineering drawings were done by hand back then and that's a lot of work).

Our higher education system definitely needs to be revamped. People need to start setting their feelings and wants aside and focus on thier strengths to find a career that is in demand. I had to learn that the hard way. Luckily I didn't get as far into debt as kids today are.

Also, they need to quit with the brainwashing crap they've been teaching. Two of my sons attended our local community college and all students are required to take certain classes. Almost all of the classes on the required list were about communism, socialism, feminism, racism, gender studies. I wonder why communists who want to do away with the foundations of our country are getting elected.....

[bisontuba]

What communists are elected in the U.S.? I just see people on the other side of the spectrum ...extremists ...ignoring the law and the constitution...

[Bob Kolada]

Tl;dr- enlist in a Reserves/NG band and enroll in music school at an affordable community college with your GI bill, between work and school you'll play and learn a ton.

Here's what I did when I decided I wanted to try music school again (approx 26 years old, played a bunch back in Indiana but had moved to Chicago)-
-looked up the Reserve/National Guard bands in the area, booked an audition with an Army Reserves band and won
-auditioned into and enrolled in a commuter college with an excellent brass faculty

A signing bonus can be put into an instrument or a car. The Army supplied me with a quality tuba, a Miraphone 187 initially; I didn't have a car but we had enough tubas that I was able to keep one at home for a while and I already owned several other instruments that were either cheap (functional old Eb tuba) or had paid for themselves (Getzen bass trombone).
Drill weekend pay plus my reserves GI bill paid most of my bills. I worked full time plus (50-60 hour weeks were not uncommon) in the summer working beach volleyball leagues and tournaments. I didn't gig that much but got a few here and there, mostly bass trombone. There was also our summer Annual Training, 2-3 weeks and there were possibilities to fill in with other Reserves bands. For a few years there were a lot of opportunities to pick up little TDY missions and such- brass quintet for a deploying company, we played at the opening of the USO terminal at O'Hare,... There are also non musical opportunities to work, I worked a regional Best Warrior competition and a lot of TDY conferences for returning R/NG soldiers.
Since I was in the military I qualified for a free Chicago Transit Authority pass (very extensive public transit for those not familiar, also an affordable mobile home for bums), not to be confused the excellent but now defunct Chicago Trombone Authority.
There was a student loan repayment program that I was mostly able to figure out, but I didn't have a lot of existing student loans.

I didn't re-enlist and College Attempt none of your business didn't work out, but there's a formula here. My initial plan was to study and learn and eventually audition for one of the higher level Army bands. You can of course pick whatever branch, my grandfathers and their brothers all served in the Army so that was the direction I wanted to go.

Yes the cities are imploding and yes the above relies on taxpayer money but you're serving and you can make a career playing in the military afterwards.
fwiw and I didn't know this before enlisting, active and NG Army bands deploy and sometimes in non musical roles, Reserve bands at the time didn't. I asked Chief about this and he shrugged and said it was a matter of which entity would fund it. I was fine deploying and had considered a different Army MOS had my audition not gone well, so I wasn't trying to get out of that.

[dp]

What communists are elected in the U.S.? I just see people on the other side of the spectrum ...extremists ...ignoring the law and the constitution...

How does conditionalizing student loans violate the law and the constitution?

The universal guaranteed student loans, where the Feds guarantee that they'll make the interest payments while you are in school, that many of us think from when "we" were in college? Those have been gone for some time now. "Federal student loans" today are direct loans and there are four different main flavors that go to "needy" students, non-need-based borrowers, non-need-based parents of borrowers/students, and past borrower consolidation programs. Theres also a whole plethora of federally "permitted" loan structures. Department of Ed is seeking to clean that cesspool up. EVERYone has been saying thats needed, I guess Mark's post prompts us to question that cleanup's criteria? So it's clean it up as long as my interests aren't affected? pfft...

The kids and Bernie and maybe some of us too complain about generational wealth?
Well what about the generational free ride through post-secondary ed?

[Schlitzz]

Social work and counseling is a high risk field, that includes assault, online/physical stalking. There’s direct math use in budgeting, income qualification, and in reviewing ongoing eligibility.

To suggest anything like there’s no math in these things, okay, let’s do income qualifications for a 6 member assistance unit.

The cost of the trailer, pad, utilities, and childcare. Because all of the kids are above age 6.

The family is blended with up to FIVE different coparents. Then calculate the required child support for each child. Will you need to garnish? Add in fees, court costs, and get the court to sign off on the parenting plan.

If you don’t know about how much math is involved with social work and counseling, rather than opening the pie hole and removing all doubt, we need more ditch diggers.

Where’s the Tylenol?

[bloke]

"Claiming that - specifically, the government - no longer offering epic transfer payments from a whole bunch of private citizens to a whole bunch of other private citizens - in the form of loans" is "unconstitutional" (of course it isn't, but so many don't ever read nor certainly never understand the Constitution, nor the purpose of it -which primarily is to protect individual citizens from their rulers)

Isn't the point of the creation of this entire thread a blatantly political troll that should be tossed into the cornfield? It's transparently obvious that it was just stuck here to pull in people of differening sociopolitical views, as virtually no one else would give a crap about this.

(Yes those loans are absolutely required to be paid back, but - as with people who borrow $200,000 to pursue dubious degrees in music, and who are now making $8,000 a year as adjuncts - who could be fired at any time, and maybe playing in a $5,000 a year in a per service orchestra along - which could be dissolved at any time, with a couple more thousand dollars teaching lessons to school children, with their spouses' or parents '' incomes having to be the ones that struggle to pay back these loans - if even they barely can) how many of these loans - which are astronomically high - are still - somehow - defaulted on - adding to the national debt, which directly devalues the purchasing power of everyone's else dollars)?

Since this program was created, tuition rates have astronomically skyrocketed in comparison to all other inflation levels, because now an entity which has the power to print money out of thin air and borrow infinite amounts of money is underwriting loans to naive barely adults who have no understanding of financing nor any other aspects of economics. Perhaps it was created because banks realized the risk and folly of making such loans whereby the federal government decided to step in (again, being that the federal government can create money out of thin air).

My daughter and her husband are both conservatory trained and are both involved in the music business. He's in one of the nation's top orchestras. By the time she was 15, their daughter was one of the top high school age French horn players in the nation, and probably would have done a great job in a whole bunch of per service orchestras -:even serving as principal. Now that she's turning 17, those skills have risen even higher. I believe it's a safe bet that she's probably the finest high school aged horn player in the nation, currently. That said, she one of those freaks of nature brilliant people (yes, her siblings are smart and make top grades, but I'm talking about the next level that we don't often see) who very very quickly absorbs and retains complicated material in scientific, mathematic, and technical fields, and who reads a couple of hundred books a year (nonfiction and fiction) outside of her high school requirements which mostly are college level courses which aren't offered in many high schools.

THAT SAID, her parents (who - again - have been through this whole routine themselves) aren't spending a nickel towards her college level education. The best school (in whatever discipline) that she might choose to attend - which offers a complete free ride - is where she will go (if indeed she chooses to go anywhere at all). If she wants to be a horn player, play in a classical music cover band with an ever-diminishing income and audience, and not pursue her economically valued talents, that will be her business, and not the business of her parents.

Tangentially related to this topic, I've noticed that quite a few of my male acquaintances - who have decided to try to make music performance their profession - have chosen/pursued spouses with strong and secure incomes.

[Mary Ann]

Not having read all the diatribes, if I were the one deciding who got loans and who didn't, the "didn't" list would be those who defaulted the most. I would think those degrees had the highest level of default.

[bisontuba]

"Claiming that - specifically, the government - no longer offering epic transfer payments from a whole bunch of private citizens to a whole bunch of other private citizens - in the form of loans" is "unconstitutional" (of course it isn't, but so many don't ever read nor certainly never understand the Constitution, nor the purpose of it -which primarily is to protect individual citizens from their rulers)

Isn't the point of the creation of this entire thread a blatantly political troll that should be tossed into the cornfield? It's transparently obvious that it was just stuck here to pull in people of differening sociopolitical views, as virtually no one else would give a crap about this.

(Yes those loans are absolutely required to be paid back, but - as with people who borrow $200,000 to pursue dubious degrees in music, and who are now making $8,000 a year as adjuncts - who could be fired at any time, and maybe playing in a $5,000 a year in a per service orchestra along - which could be dissolved at any time, with a couple more thousand dollars teaching lessons to school children, with their spouses' or parents '' incomes having to be the ones that struggle to pay back these loans - if even they barely can) how many of these loans - which are astronomically high - are still - somehow - defaulted on - adding to the national debt, which directly devalues the purchasing power of everyone's else dollars)?

Since this program was created, tuition rates have astronomically skyrocketed in comparison to all other inflation levels, because now an entity which has the power to print money out of thin air and borrow infinite amounts of money is underwriting loans to naive barely adults who have no understanding of financing nor any other aspects of economics. Perhaps it was created because banks realized the risk and folly of making such loans whereby the federal government decided to step in (again, being that the federal government can create money out of thin air).

My daughter and her husband are both conservatory trained and are both involved in the music business. He's in one of the nation's top orchestras. By the time she was 15, their daughter was one of the top high school age French horn players in the nation, and probably would have done a great job in a whole bunch of per service orchestras -:even serving as principal. Now that she's turning 17, those skills have risen even higher. I believe it's a safe bet that she's probably the finest high school aged horn player in the nation, currently. That said, she one of those freaks of nature brilliant people (yes, her siblings are smart and make top grades, but I'm talking about the next level that we don't often see) who very very quickly absorbs and retains complicated material in scientific, mathematic, and technical fields, and who reads a couple of hundred books a year (nonfiction and fiction) outside of her high school requirements which mostly are college level courses which aren't offered in many high schools.

THAT SAID, her parents (who - again - have been through this whole routine themselves) aren't spending a nickel towards her college level education. The best school (in whatever discipline) that she might choose to attend - which offers a complete free ride - is where she will go (if indeed she chooses to go anywhere at all). If she wants to be a horn player, play in a classical music cover band with an ever-diminishing income and audience, and not pursue her economically valued talents, that will be her business, and not the business of her parents.

Tangentially related to this topic, I've noticed that quite a few of my male acquaintances - who have decided to try to make music performance their profession - have chosen/pursued spouses with strong and secure incomes.

Joe-
You need to read the book THE FOUR AGREEMENTS...Agreement #1....DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS...

Mark

[bloke]

looks like a duck sounds like a duck quacks like a duck.

Maybe (??) it's okay to loan somebody $30,000 to get a band director degree or something (though it seems to me that the individual states - who might need band directors - should be offering these sorts of loans, with the condition of paying them back at no interest, or even forgiving them as long as the person finishes the degree and becomes a band director in that state and stays one for a certain amount of time), but - me now being the coerced lender - I wouldn't otherwise choose to loan $150,000 for someone to pursue playing the tuba for money.

The obvious advantage to the individual states making these loans would be that they are loaning real money (rather than printed money, and thus not causing inflation via the making of the loans). In the past, federal student loans were loans that were made through banks but guaranteed by the federal government, whereas they have become direct loans from the federal government itself - inflationary. If someone believes that the federal government should loan $150,000 for someone to learn how to play the tuba and then to try to do it for money to pay the loan back, none of these same people should ever complain about $7 to $10 dollar ground beef, and nor should they complain about $300K to half million dollar shotgun houses.

[bisontuba]

looks like a duck sounds like a duck quacks like a duck

Paranoia...it was put on here because this is SUPPOSED to because a music site and it might affect some folks.....it was just a fyi.....period.

[bloke]

looks like a duck sounds like a duck quacks like a duck

Paranoia...it was put on here because this is SUPPOSED to because a music site and it might affect some folks.....it was just a fyi.....period.

psychological projection

I'm not a tattletale. Why not report your own thread to the moderators and see what they think. They'll probably let it stay, but why not let them decide?

[bisontuba]

They watch ALL the threads.....it is on ALL the news channels...nothing that is a deep state secret...relax, and read the Sunday NY Times

[bloke]

I'm in favor of those entities which have uses for specific trades which require training (such as the federal government training soldiers without charging the soldiers to be trained, or even helping military musicians - after the fact -:with their training costs) to be those which offer to finance the training. That said, as there is such a tremendous surplus of trained musicians in the United States, I prefer for there to be a monetary limit on reimbursement/loan assistance for musical training training for even federal government hired musicians.

If we all finance each other's training for whatever occupation for skillsets tickle our fancies (noun), then even those of us whereby there's almost no demand for the occupation or skillset (and the training costs a fortune) will be encouraged to take the rest of us up on the offer...as - specifically - this has been the glaring. problem.

I don't view it as Mark's right nor my responsibility for me to finance Mark"s terminal degree in collecting vintage and historic musical instruments...
...and where's my $150,000 for teaching MYSELF my skillsets, which I use to earn my own keep?

and don't get me wrong: I'm still totally aware that you're trolling us.

[catgrowlB]

The whole federal student loan thing is a real concern -- especially today with skyrocketing college costs and dwindling music gigs/opportunities.

But what is an even much bigger concern is how our 'leaders' get us involved with very costly wars (human life, machinery, costs involved), as well as tearing down wings of historic structures to then rebuild something "bigger and better" Just THIS year, that has cost Billion$ of dollars, and we still have the rest of October, November and December to go. Meanwhile, we have millions of people living in poverty, homelessness, living in cars, etc. All in the "richest country in the world" with plenty of opportunities for everyone, right?
That is on top of having record profits for top CEOs in this K-shaped economy....

There was a great tuba player on the old board, and on here who had to sell off his tubas a while back due to no opportunities. I hope he is doing OK. He went by the handle "southtubist" I think, but he attended Interlochen and then university afterwards. He was better than many professional per-service and ROPA orchestra players I've heard....
It was honestly heartbreaking for me to see such a young talent sell his tubas because he couldn't catch a break.