Mahler Symphony no. 1 Tuba Choice (Poll)

[arpthark]

No, Gustav Mahler never lived in Paris, though he visited the city several times for professional engagements and medical consultations.

The story I love is Mahler and Freud walking the streets of Leiden (NL), discussing Gustav's many problems. This really happened!

Was that when you lived there?

[Bob Kolada]

Do not underestimate just how softly all who play before you are going to play. And do not overestimate your ability to play just as softly as they did. My two cents.

Play Mahler II on French tuba.

No, Gustav Mahler never lived in Paris, though he visited the city several times for professional engagements and medical consultations.

Play it on the Mel Culbertson VMI Neptune.

[bloke]

5-string Fender Jazz bass
with a single 15-in speaker Ampeg 150 watt amp.
Don't be obnoxious:
Use flatwound strings that are about 6 months old.

[russiantuba]

Ask Mahler.

Doing some research--not sure if he knew the difference between the bass tuba and contrabass tuba (publishers would often add this in), but his own pen says "bass tuba"



The 5th symphony manuscript, which the publishers often list as "contrabass tuba" is written as "tuba"

https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... 3-m5.1.pdf

I couldn't easily find the manuscript to the 6th symphony, which reads as "bass tuba" and is definitely not scored for that IMO. The 7th symphony is also marked bass tuba, BUT with the tenor tuba solos, it could be used to differentiate "bass tuba" and "tenor tuba" https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... lePage.pdf

Symphony no 8 he marks "bass tuba" but shortens it in the autograph as "tuba". https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... 065616.pdf

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Side Note--I have never trusted what a publisher puts for "bass tuba" and "contrabass tuba" because in my research, it has been theorized that some publishers, notably in Strauss, marked it to differentiate between the tenor tuba, Wagner tuba, and our instrument. Though F tubas were used during the time quite a bit, the later works and the heavy scoring, particular Mahler 6 and the solo, seem best fitting on the big horn. Publishers will do as they choose to get the music to sell, or what they think is best. I would love to have some of our German/Austrian friends to chime in to discuss performance practices and maybe some oral history on the tuba usage in these works, particularly the first symphony.

[dp]

Ask Mahler.

Doing some research--not sure if he knew the difference between the bass tuba and contrabass tuba (publishers would often add this in), but his own pen says "bass tuba"

The 5th symphony manuscript, which the publishers often list as "contrabass tuba" is written as "tuba"
https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... 3-m5.1.pdf
I couldn't easily find the manuscript to the 6th symphony, which reads as "bass tuba" and is definitely not scored for that IMO. The 7th symphony is also marked bass tuba, BUT with the tenor tuba solos, it could be used to differentiate "bass tuba" and "tenor tuba" https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... lePage.pdf
Symphony no 8 he marks "bass tuba" but shortens it in the autograph as "tuba". https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... 065616.pdf
-------------------
Side Note--I have never trusted what a publisher puts for "bass tuba" and "contrabass tuba" because in my research, it has been theorized that some publishers, notably in Strauss, marked it to differentiate between the tenor tuba, Wagner tuba, and our instrument. Though F tubas were used during the time quite a bit, the later works and the heavy scoring, particular Mahler 6 and the solo, seem best fitting on the big horn. Publishers will do as they choose to get the music to sell, or what they think is best. I would love to have some of our German/Austrian friends to chime in to discuss performance practices and maybe some oral history on the tuba usage in these works, particularly the first symphony.

So I just thought, you have the PhD, and you're asking us??

[bloke]

Those six valve ZO F tubas that Tom McGrady was selling (I have no idea if he's still selling them??)
Those were about the closest thing I'd ever played to a B&S Symphonie F tuba.
Having played a whole bunch of brands and models of F tubas at tuba shindigs' elephant rooms - and setting them down after about a minute or so, I understand why people are hesitant to use most of those to play the entire Mahler First Symphony, but I believe I would be willing to use one of those ZO things - with six valves - to play that entire piece.
- Most F tubas simply aren't very good.
- Any F tuba with only five valves is sort of like a C tuba with only four.
(Five valve F tuba: the lack of a good valve combination for low G, and no way to play low F on the second partial, no viable alternates for low C, and no alternates for 2-3).
If no 6th valve, I would certainly rig up the #2 slide with a trigger.

https://mackbrass.com/tu7000-f-tuba
I'm pretty sure I would do quite a few things to one of these before I would take it to the concert hall, but - unlike so many makes and models - the "bones" are there.

[claf]

I will tell you that most trombone players actually prefer playing with F tubas, of course, when played well. The sonority is closer to theirs, and (when some contrabass tuba players tend to sound a little fuzzy and puffy) a good F player's pitches are easier for them to interpret.

In my local symphony where I'm principal trombone, the tuba player has a Miraphone Petruschka. Easiest tuba to blend with I have played along as a trombone player. A Yamaha F was there when I was principal trumpet, it was good as well.
Every time I played along with a CC or BBb it was harder for us brass section.

[russiantuba]

So I just thought, you have the PhD, and you're asking us??

There is a difference than researching the scores and autographs, which I did last night, however actual oral history, performance practice, and experience playing it influences my decision equally as much as what a score or the music says. There are several tenured/tenure track full time professors who have never performed the majority of the excerpts with an orchestra. Thinking about this, I will admit I haven't played many, but I have played more with groups than some of my colleagues much older.

In my local symphony where I'm principal trombone, the tuba player has a Miraphone Petruschka. Easiest tuba to blend with I have played along as a trombone player. A Yamaha F was there when I was principal trumpet, it was good as well.
Every time I played along with a CC or BBb it was harder for us brass section.

My Gronitz F is very similar to the Petrushka. When you play along with a BBb or CC, is a 6/4 piston valve York style tuba? One of the things I am big on is tonal clarity--these horns might sound nice in an audition room, but sometimes lack the tonal clarity that an F tuba is instinctively going to have by design.

[daktx2]

The last time I saw this performed, it was the San Francisco symphony sometime around 2018. Jeff Anderson used his F tuba (some kind of rotary B&S, not sure which model) for the solo, and his C (he played a PT6 at the time, still might) or the rest. The performance was, not surprisingly, awesome.

More and more frequently, I've observed pros taking multiple instruments on stage, not just for the Mahler. At a recent CSO performance of Alpine Symphony, Gene Porkony had both an F and a C on stage, and I'm pretty sure the second tuba did the same. I think a combination of the pressure to play flawlessly and the pressure to keep up with the rest of the brass, who are insanely powerful players using pretty heavy equipment, leads to multiple instruments on stage.

I'm no pro so discount my choices here, as I don't have the same pressure to keep up with a professional trombone section nor anywhere near the level of ability. When my community orchestra programmed this 4 years ago, I used my Yamaha 321 Eb on the solo, and my PT5 for the rest. This was mainly because the 321 had a tendency to get lost in the sound of the orchestra during loud stuff, and because my PT5 had a sky high F and G in the staff that made this solo difficult to execute cleanly. With the Yamaha it was pretty point and shoot. My orchestra programmed it again this season, and with easy to tune and easy to hear basstuba I have now, I plan to use the F for the whole thing.

As an aside, whenever I mention F tubas and Jeff Anderson together, I have to tell a story. I once saw Jeff teach a masterclass in the bay area. A student played Fountains of Rome as his piece. Jeff wanted to demonstrate something to the students, but Jeff only had an F tuba at the class. He proceeded to play that portion of the excerpt flawlessly on his F. Probably the most impressive tuba feat I've witnessed live.

[bloke]

The last time I saw this performed, it was the San Francisco symphony sometime around 2018. Jeff Anderson used his F tuba (some kind of rotary B&S, not sure which model) for the solo, and his C (he played a PT6 at the time, still might) or the rest. The performance was, not surprisingly, awesome.

More and more frequently, I've observed pros taking multiple instruments on stage, not just for the Mahler. At a recent CSO performance of Alpine Symphony, Gene Porkony had both an F and a C on stage, and I'm pretty sure the second tuba did the same. I think a combination of the pressure to play flawlessly and the pressure to keep up with the rest of the brass, who are insanely powerful players using pretty heavy equipment, leads to multiple instruments on stage.

I'm no pro so discount my choices here, as I don't have the same pressure to keep up with a professional trombone section nor anywhere near the level of ability. When my community orchestra programmed this 4 years ago, I used my Yamaha 321 Eb on the solo, and my PT5 for the rest. This was mainly because the 321 had a tendency to get lost in the sound of the orchestra during loud stuff, and because my PT5 had a sky high F and G in the staff that made this solo difficult to execute cleanly. With the Yamaha it was pretty point and shoot. My orchestra programmed it again this season, and with easy to tune and easy to hear basstuba I have now, I plan to use the F for the whole thing.

As an aside, whenever I mention F tubas and Jeff Anderson together, I have to tell a story. I once saw Jeff teach a masterclass in the bay area. A student played Fountains of Rome as his piece. Jeff wanted to demonstrate something to the students, but Jeff only had an F tuba at the class. He proceeded to play that portion of the excerpt flawlessly on his F. Probably the most impressive tuba feat I've witnessed live.

Jeff is underrated.
He's probably the best orchestral tuba player in the western hemisphere.
He's also one of the very nicest, as well as the most modest.

[arpthark]

This thread is reminding me that I saw the CSO play Mahler 1 right after I went up to have a lesson with Gene, I guess this would’ve been about 15 years ago now, and he played the solo on a Miraphone Firebird F and the rest on the famous York.

Edit: and he also used the Firebird on the soft pedal F.

[bloke]

This thread is reminding me that I saw the CSO play Mahler 1 right after I went up to have a lesson with Gene, I guess this would’ve been about 15 years ago now, and he played the solo on a Miraphone Firebird F and the rest on the famous York.

Gene ALMOST had an amazing F tuba. Years and years ago when I first knew him, he had a "Perantucci" pre-reunification F tuba (basically a handmade PT-10). ALMOST a Symphonie Model, except with a screwed up bore taper and a screwed up mouthpipe tube (both, too large).

[arpthark]

This thread is reminding me that I saw the CSO play Mahler 1 right after I went up to have a lesson with Gene, I guess this would’ve been about 15 years ago now, and he played the solo on a Miraphone Firebird F and the rest on the famous York.

Gene ALMOST had an amazing F tuba. Years and years ago when I first knew him, he had a "Perantucci" pre-reunification F tuba (basically a handmade PT-10). ALMOST a Symphonie Model, except with a screwed up bore taper and a screwed up mouthpipe tube (both, too large).

Those are nice. I learned F tuba on a school-owned GDR “Perantucci Modell.” It had a detachable leadpipe dealio on it.

[bloke]

This thread is reminding me that I saw the CSO play Mahler 1 right after I went up to have a lesson with Gene, I guess this would’ve been about 15 years ago now, and he played the solo on a Miraphone Firebird F and the rest on the famous York.

Gene ALMOST had an amazing F tuba. Years and years ago when I first knew him, he had a "Perantucci" pre-reunification F tuba (basically a handmade PT-10). ALMOST a Symphonie Model, except with a screwed up bore taper and a screwed up mouthpipe tube (both, too large).

Those are nice. I learned F tuba on a school-owned GDR “Perantucci Modell.” It had a detachable leadpipe dealio on it.

Even when I first played for him in St. Louis he was cussin' his.
I've always loved my original/unadulterated/NON-Americanized version.

[claf]

In my local symphony where I'm principal trombone, the tuba player has a Miraphone Petruschka. Easiest tuba to blend with I have played along as a trombone player. A Yamaha F was there when I was principal trumpet, it was good as well.
Every time I played along with a CC or BBb it was harder for us brass section.

My Gronitz F is very similar to the Petrushka. When you play along with a BBb or CC, is a 6/4 piston valve York style tuba? One of the things I am big on is tonal clarity--these horns might sound nice in an audition room, but sometimes lack the tonal clarity that an F tuba is instinctively going to have by design.

I'm not talking explicitely about Mahlers, I've only played one (the 2nd I think).
BBb and CC are generally 5/4 or big 4/4. CC were pistons, BBb have been both rotary and pistons.

[prodigal]

insert normal TubaForum sidebar rant here:
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Wow, we do love and fight over our F tubas!

bloke's Symphonie: probably the perfect F tuba with the sixth valve for the workarounds.

apthark's five valve Symphonie: if it's like the one I used to play, it made me HAPPY to play the tuba. I HAD to play the 186CC, I WANTED to play the Symphonie. Those few notes were "interesting," but everything else was perfectly in tune, with tone that is indescribable.

My old PT-10: low range was easier than the Symphonie, but it had a boring tone and was harder to play. I bought it shortly after my Sr. recital on the Symphonie, so I played them back to back, and the Symphonie was far superior.

My current PT-15, it might not be "very good" from bloke's standard of B&S tubas, but it isn't BAD, and for the reamed out, oversized Perantucci models, I'd say that it's pretty good, especially for what I paid for it!

I am not playing professionally, so my standards are a lot lower than you guys, but when I pull that dark blue gig bag from my giant locker here at school, I smile.

Having instruments that you LIKE to play is a big part of the improvement process, I guess. Honestly, the only really BAD F tuba is no F tuba! (Or trying to replace it with an Eb- sorry I'm just trolling here, there are some good Ebs out there!)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
So, back to Mahler...


Take 'em both! You've got a piece for both horns. ROCK IT! F TUBA ON THE SOLO!!!!!!

[bloke]

Mahler 1 is analogous to Bruckner 4, as well as most all Wagner compositions which include tuba other than the ring cycle operas...
~ bass tuba ~
An earlier score features a double low C in Bruckner 4, but low frequency pitches do not dictate playing a piece with a contribass tuba. Carl has pointed out that - originally - Ravel's orchestration of Pictures was played on a small body and bore 8 ft long baritone horn with six pistons, and he has demonstrated that it can be done effectively, though it is Carl's musicianship and skill which allows him to do it up to modern tuning standards.

If the problem is encountering open low F's which are in tune and focused, the solution is a six valve F tuba and playing that pitch on the second partial with all six valves.
If another problem is a low G which is sharp, the solution is a six valve F tuba, and playing that pitch with valves 3-4-5-6, rather than 2-3-4-5 (or at least a second slide trigger which is conveniently located for the left hand).

I've already - in this thread - reviewed the likely (barely) adequacy of a four valve BB flat tuba, the difficulties encountered with a four-valve C tuba, and the additional difficulties encountered with (only) a five valve F tuba.

I will be the first person to point out that with Auto-Tune in conjunction with pop music, pitch standards have greatly tightened up over the past few decades. With that truth being embraced, more valves on tubas are called for - to avoid struggles keeping up with these standards.
The original bassoons had little more than holes in them to cover with the fingers. Today's are quite complicated and involved.

Think of all the gadgetry and other jazz that is stuck on new automobiles today - even required by law.

People will be offended who are accustomed to playing five valve F tubas as well as those few who are still working with four valve C tubas. Those can be played in tune, but it's challenging.

In summary, a 6 valve F tuba can easily negotiate the entire Mahler first Symphony with good tuning and good focus...ok, but it's still really shouldn't be just any F tuba, because most of them (can we talk?) suck.

[arpthark]

F TUBA SIDEBAR WARNING; BEWARE, WOULD-BE MAHLER 1 DISCUSSION-HAVERS!

@prodigal I am digging the Symphonie. I need to do two things to it to make it really, really nice:

-2nd valve slide kicker
-Trim the 3rd valve circuit

I might get up the gumption to do the 3rd circuit trim this weekend. That and having a trombone-fast 2nd valve slide kicker would solve 95% of the intonation issues on the horn... and there aren't that many to begin with.

If I end up doing a 2nd slide kicker, I will do one for my Rudi at the same time.

I've been woodshedding the Bach cello suites (at pitch, not the Cherry Classics/Ralph Sauer transposed version) on it. It's a pretty enlightening experience as far as showing me my own weaknesses in high range flexibility and maintaining a sense of musical line. When it comes to Bach, you can't blame the music on that count, only the musician!

[bloke]

With my last post - which was uploaded probably microseconds before yours, Blake - I pointed out the (in my view) near necessity of six valves on an F tuba. With six valves, there's no need to cut the third circuit, because standing as it is it actually offers a couple of InTune fingerings for the valve combination 2-3. With six valves, there's a viable and shorter alternative combination as a substitute for 2-3.
A sixth rotor pretty much dictates the use of the left hand to operate at least one rotor. I find the right-left "seesaw" setup offered on some six valve tubas to be comical. The model that I use doesn't require any first slide manipulation. 4-2 is the way to go, and hopefully with an F instrument that doesn't require any first slide manipulation.

[prodigal]

Hey, you guys get to play Mahler for real, I'm living vicariously through you!

bloke: I am liking my 4+1 setups on my 186 and the PT-15, it seems more logical. 5+1 would be taxing to use, 4+2 would be easier IMO.

Ok, elephant, or well, unicorn in the room question:

How many 4+2 Symphonies are out there?