4 vs. 5 valve on BBb tubas?

[Thomas]

I found that there are modern kaiser designs (and some vintage ones) which are spot on for 2-4 H and easy to handle with air and lips for a good 2-4 E without messing up C/F on 4th valve or the higher pitches using 2nd valve. Same for 124 Eb. A very nice example regarding intonation and a deep resonant tone is this rather 4/4 one which I like very much and would be an option for spending a future lottery win:

https://www.thomann.de/de/klingspor_b4_gm_bb_tuba.htm

On such tubas, if I wanted a 5th valve for more comfort, I'd prefer a long full step. Maybe a 2nd slide trigger to ease centering the really low pitches.

I personally own a vintage kaiser with above described intonation tendencies, the design very much resembling the famous B&F kaisers (pre 1940's and same regional origin). Both my compensated BBb and this particular kaiser tuba can easily be used vice versa for advanced wind band repertoire requiring low E's, Eb's, D's and if necessary further down the pedal register.

[Oedipoes]

Whatever works for you...

Vintage 5-valve french-style C (but also BBb) tubas (like Persy...) had the 5th valve tuned to a flat semitone. (they also had a 2-whole tone 3rd valve)
When german-style tubas came into fashion, some orchestras/ bands ordered C tubas with 5 valves with the same setup, to accomodate the players used to the french system. I have played two different Rudolf Meinl 4/4 C tubas made with this setup.

That said, I have two BBb tubas, they are both rotary and both have a long whole tone 5th valve.
I'm very happy with them for my playing.

[bloke]

I found that there are modern kaiser designs (and some vintage ones) which are spot on for 2-4 H and easy to handle with air and lips for a good 2-4 E without messing up C/F on 4th valve or the higher pitches using 2nd valve. Same for 124 Eb. A very nice example regarding intonation and a deep resonant tone is this rather 4/4 one which I like very much and would be an option for spending a future lottery win:

https://www.thomann.de/de/klingspor_b4_gm_bb_tuba.htm

On such tubas, if I wanted a 5th valve for more comfort, I'd prefer a long full step. Maybe a 2nd slide trigger to ease centering the really low pitches.

I personally own a vintage kaiser with above described intonation tendencies, the design very much resembling the famous B&F kaisers (pre 1940's and same regional origin). Both my compensated BBb and this particular kaiser tuba can easily be used vice versa for advanced wind band repertoire requiring low E's, Eb's, D's and if necessary further down the pedal register.

I would tend to suspect that the fourth circuit is long (on an instrument whereby 2-4 is actually low enough in pitch without favoring), and also that the #1 circuit has long slide tubes to play C & F with 1-3 (pulling for that valve combination if the intonation of the ensemble is critical, and not if it's marching).

Typical Kaiser intonation it's pretty curious.
The open D (middle of the bass clef staff) is often spot on in tune whereas D-flat and C are suddenly nearly always quite flat, B natural (simply due to it being a valve combination) ends up being not quite as flat. It's pretty consistent from Kaiser to Kaiser to Kaiser, in my experience. They must mostly all follow a very similar bugle taper.

I have found the same thing from "open" D down to B natural with the Kaiser baritones, whereby perhaps there bugle tapers are miniatures of the B flat tubas.

[Thomas]

I would tend to suspect that the fourth circuit is long (on an instrument whereby 2-4 is actually low enough in pitch without favoring), and also that the #1 circuit has long slide tubes to play C & F with 1-3 (pulling for that valve combination if the intonation of the ensemble is critical, and not if it's marching).

Typical Kaiser intonation it's pretty curious.
The open D (middle of the bass clef staff) is often spot on in tune whereas D-flat and C are suddenly nearly always quite flat, B natural (simply due to it being a valve combination) ends up being not quite as flat. It's pretty consistent from Kaiser to Kaiser to Kaiser, in my experience. They must mostly all follow a very similar bugle taper.

I have found the same thing from "open" D down to B natural with the Kaiser baritones, whereby perhaps there bugle tapers are miniatures of the B flat tubas.

I assumed above until I played such designs as linked which seem to have slight adjustments in their bugle design. The tendencies are still there but ever so small. I wonder whether there is a x/4 size limit to overcome those intonation issues. I just recently played a very nice kaiser tuba almost identical to mine in age, height (~44,5"), bell taper (20") and bugle layout but with slightly "fatter" lower and upper bows (~by 5-7mm) and larger bore side by side which featured flat Db and C far more distinctively, same for sharp 2-4 combinations.

I never use 1-3 for low C/F if there is a 4th valve. With all my slide setups that worked for me and most other tubas I played, I use 1-3 to overcome flat C/F in the staff if needed.

[bloke]

I'm going to have to remain skeptical that bugle taper can correct for a 7-or-so inches tubing length mathematical discrepancy.

Again...Often fourth valve C is acoustically flat, but rarely (ever?) enough to get 2-4 B-natural flat enough. It's not going to do anything for low E. It's going to be stinky sharp (without some serious lipping... and there aren't too many people who can lip a non-adjusted 2-4 low E seriously downward at fortissimo.

If the whole tuba section is sharp on those pitches, then I suppose those pitches (with non-adjusted 2-4) could be defined as in tune.

[Nemo]

Being someone who doesn't spend enough time doing scales, I'm happy to exchange a little bit of slide pulling on 1 or 2 long notes in exchange for agility on fast passages. 235 isn't incredible, but I much prefer that over ineffectively wiggling my pinky in order to play both out of tune AND rhythmically sloppy.

[arpthark]

Being someone who doesn't spend enough time doing scales, I'm happy to exchange a little bit of slide pulling on 1 or 2 long notes in exchange for agility on fast passages. 235 isn't incredible, but I much prefer that over ineffectively wiggling my pinky in order to play both out of tune AND rhythmically sloppy.

That's a big part of it for me, too. 2-4 is just such an awkward fingering.

[bloke]

Being someone who doesn't spend enough time doing scales, I'm happy to exchange a little bit of slide pulling on 1 or 2 long notes in exchange for agility on fast passages. 235 isn't incredible, but I much prefer that over ineffectively wiggling my pinky in order to play both out of tune AND rhythmically sloppy.

That's a big part of it for me, too. 2-4 is just such an awkward fingering.

bloke "Why is it that bassoonists can always easily outrun us? I never hear them complaining about fingerings."

[Nemo]

Keeping in mind bassonists have to exert much less force over a much shorter distance to actuate their keys, and their instruments still respond normally when the key is halfway between up and down

[prodigal]

2-4 is easier than P-A-M-I in the right hand....

[Mary Ann]

Do you mean in sequence, or all at once? Either way I think I disagree. I use 24 for E natural just below the staff, and for me pami is easier. Except my right hand always shook when I tried to perform on guitar and I just gave that up. I need something like tuba (or, gasp, viola or cello) before I can do what need to be done without ending up in the hinterlands physically.

[bloke]

mashing various combinations of buttons with one hand, not even having to cover holes, and not having to move any fingers over to adjacent buttons...

...and claiming this is "hard"


(not reacting to any one comment, but to general comments)

[prodigal]

I'm just frustrated with my lack of progress on a good tremolo.

[bloke]

I'm just frustrated with my lack of progress on a good tremolo.

Years ago, that was built into a lot of amps, but now you have to buy a stomp box for that.

[prodigal]

I wish it was as easy as hardware! (I am referring to tremolo on your old muse, the classical guitar.)

[bloke]

I wish it was as easy as hardware! (I am referring to tremolo on your old muse, the classical guitar.)

Known... Just cracking a little joke.
Some of the 16th notes I have to play (bass guitar) in some of these charts - where I'm expected to play the original note-for-note recorded version... They're about as fast as tremolo notes...at least, they feel like it.

Those old Spanish and flamenco solo pieces. (doodle-e doodle-e doodle-e doodle-e doodle-e doodle-e...)... Those were hard.
I sort of preferred baroque lute transcriptions (no doodle-e's) but of course the money makers were the movie themes, the "soft" popular tunes, and everyone liked *bossa nova.
-----------------
*If they didn't, they certainly pretended to... Maybe so they would appear to have good taste just like Charlie the Tuna...?? ...but I believe they liked it because they could get up and dance.

[dp]

That's a big part of it for me, too. 2-4 is just such an awkward fingering.

For the fast stuff have you tried reaching around with your left hand?

[prodigal]

That's a big part of it for me, too. 2-4 is just such an awkward fingering.

For the fast stuff have you tried reaching around with your left hand?

If I lived back where I grew up, I'd have enough radiation exposure to grow two new arms...

[prodigal]

I wish it was as easy as hardware! (I am referring to tremolo on your old muse, the classical guitar.)

Known... Just cracking a little joke.
Some of the 16th notes I have to play (bass guitar) in some of these charts - where I'm expected to play the original note-for-note recorded version... They're about as fast as tremolo notes...at least, they feel like it.

Those old Spanish and flamenco solo pieces. (doodle-e doodle-e doodle-e doodle-e doodle-e doodle-e...)... Those were hard.
I sort of preferred baroque lute transcriptions (no doodle-e's) but of course the money makers were the movie themes, the "soft" popular tunes, and everyone liked *bossa nova.
-----------------
*If they didn't, they certainly pretended to... Maybe so they would appear to have good taste just like Charlie the Tuna...?? ...but I believe they liked it because they could get up and dance.

Recuerdos one of these days, but today isn't that day.

[Chris Mayer]

Hi,

for responsiveness and sound reasons (ok it might not apply to all Bb tuba models, but the Fafner and the 197 do not come with 5 valves), weight and cost and the probability of allow H and C in literature, I would always prefer a 4 valve tuba.
- for fine tuning, a movable 1st slide would cover the high majority of intonation challenges (Eb 14 (and also the low Des and C), B or E 123, C in the staff 13, Fredo, who has some nice videos on youtube, has 4 valves on his 197 and triggers on 1., 2. and 4. valve.
- if required, I would have and use a dependant and exchangeable long tone valve in the 4. valve circuit, use and install only when required. (I recall Bob Tucci mentioned he had such an exchangeable dependant valve with his Fafner)
-- Mahler and Bruckner have no notes below E
-- Wagner Eb
-- Strauss has some notes and bars with Eb, D, and Des (Alpine Symphonie, Frau ohne Schatten,..)
-- Prokovief mostly Eb also C in #3 and #7 and Shostakovich Eb and D
--....
-- for modern literature of course I can imagine everything (..., B tripplets,...) and decisions might be different regarding the need of a 5th valve (either in line or exchangeable). But again, how often do such low notes appear to justify a 5th valve on a Bb Tuba, assuming you have a movable 1st. valve side (also Eb or F tuba could lay such low note to provide the frequency while Bb plays an octave higher...) ?

Best
Chris