4 vs. 5 valve on BBb tubas?

[iiipopes]

And no, I don't want to mess with priviledged tones in Brass Band literature, or in Crespo, at least, I woun't like it due to agility, secure centering and messy fingering issues.

My experiences with Besson compensating tubas is that due to the inherent damping of the anti-nodes of the low notes recycling through the valve block a second time is that Besson compensating tubas privilege tones are problematic at best and simply will not resonate at all at worst and typically. Hence my distinguishing with a sousaphone. Decades ago I had the privilege (pun intended) of playing a pre-WWII Conn 38K, the predecessor to the 20K, but with the standard valve block - the 20K short-throw block had not been invented yet. It was so resonant, you could not tell that the low Eb was a privilege tone rather than a valve tone. Everything from there on down shook rafters and floor joists with only moderate volume and good breath support all the way down to true pedal BBb. That's how strong the fundamental was, compared to many other tubas that sound grainy at that low pitch level. My 36K is not quite that resonant, but you still have to listen closely to hear that the privilege tones are not valve tones.

As I posted earlier, depending on the ensemble and the literature, a player may want the extra valve for ease of execution. But yes, you are correct: I don't need it, and I don't want it due to the extra cost and extra weight. If I ever played in an ensemble or literature as you describe, I may reconsider to make sure the passage is executed properly, but not until then.

[Sousaswag]

5 valves make the tuba more useful than 4. Push button rather than yank slides? Yes please.

No, 5 valves can’t solve all intonation problems, but it makes B natural and low Eb much easier to play in tune.

[catgrowlB]

As some have said, BBb sousas and large piston BBb tubas usually have great false tones. Something about the more moderate valveset bore thru pistons, combined with a large tuba/sousa body and wide-flared bell makes a good recipe for great false/privileged tones.
I recently checked, and Adams has an option for a trigger for the 1st slide on their sousaphone, which I think is great. For such tubas and sousas, slide triggers would be at least as advantageous as an extra valve or two.

On most 4/4 or smaller BBb tubas, maybe more valves is needed. But even then, I'd like to see tuning triggers and compensating systems utilized more often.

[iiipopes]

As some have said, BBb sousas and large piston BBb tubas usually have great false tones. Something about the more moderate valveset bore thru pistons, combined with a large tuba/sousa body and wide-flared bell makes a good recipe for great false/privileged tones.
I recently checked, and Adams has an option for a trigger for the 1st slide on their sousaphone, which I think is great. For such tubas and sousas, slide triggers would be at least as advantageous as an extra valve or two.

On most 4/4 or smaller BBb tubas, maybe more valves are needed. But even then, I'd like to see tuning triggers and compensating systems utilized more often.

Have you read my threads about how I have my upper valve souzy slides converted to moveable slides instead of being hard soldered? Especially on a Conn wrap 1st valve slide, it lays perfectly at the left hand and is very, very easy to adjust intonation. The others can be set where desired. For example, this thread: viewtopic.php?p=92067 third post down.

Also, remember that except for the pre-WWII 4-valve sousaphones which were designed to be the bass voice in jazz bands on a small stage or corner of the speakeasy before modern amplification, souzys should be three-valve so they are easier to march with and play other outdoor gigs with, with as light a weight as possible on the shoulders.

[prairieboy1]

My experiences of playing tuba/sousaphone for over fifty years:
1) I play tuba in a community band. I have played several instruments over the years, including my current Jupiter JTU1110 and a rebuilt/restored real Conn 36K sousaphone.
2) The effective bottom note for all of these arrangements and repertoire is the F below open BBb, fingered either 4th valve alone, or 1+3 on a sousaphone, pulling 1st valve as necessary for intonation.
3) The purpose of a 5th valve "long whole step" functions the same as on a CC tuba, but one step lower, so the combination of T+4 is the low Eb below open BBb.
4) See above: I almost never play low Eb below low open BBb in community band. I am the only tuba, and I almost never drop the octave, except maybe the occasional cadential note, because all it does is cause mud and doesn't properly support the ensemble. And I never play it in an outdoor setting, because it simply doesn't carry, however good the sound shell may be - or not. If I have to, in order to assure proper support, I have even taken low Ab, G, Gb, and F below open BBb up an octave for clarity outdoors.
5) Summary: unless you are playing in a German/Austrian orchestra, which prefer BBb tubas, in an auditorium that has superlative acoustics, it has no practical value in the typical American concert band. Unsubstantiated legend: even Sousa gave up on the singular EEB tuba in the UK, because he realized it was too difficult to transport, and, again, really had no practical value, just as an oddity. That instrument at Harvard has now been restored, again, to novelty status. I have seen only one piece in the last twenty or thirty years, Lincolnshire Posy by Grainger, that actually scores a low Eb, so play it 1+2+4 on a standard BBb tuba. If that tends to be flat, arch the back of your tongue slightly to increase the air velocity and bring it up to pitch, although probably nobody will notice. For one piece in that many years, it is not worth purchasing a 5th valve, either because of cost or the extra weight of the valve and circuit tubing, contrasted by the ease of valve substitution 1-2-4.
6) Epilogue: most sousaphones have great privilege pitches, so if you are tasked with the low Eb or the low D on a sousaphone, you can play privilege open for Eb, 2nd valve for D, 1st valve for Db, all again obviating the need for a 5th "long whole step" valve.

This is an excellent explanation and quoted for truth!!

[catgrowlB]

Have you read my threads about how I have my upper valve souzy slides converted to moveable slides instead of being hard soldered? Especially on a Conn wrap 1st valve slide, it lays perfectly at the left hand and is very, very easy to adjust intonation. The others can be set where desired. For example, this thread: viewtopic.php?p=92067 third post down.

Yes, I've read several times on here that you had the 1st slide made movable on your 36k, which I think is great

The old HN White King 1250 sousa had the 1st upper slide movable, and that model was/is arguably the most in tune sousa. The later 2350 is the same overall model, but with a few small changes, including making the upper 1st slide soldered/immovable. It would be great to find a nice 1250 and install a trigger on the 1st slide, then your low B and E naturals will be in tune with the 123 combos.
The very ultimate sousa for me would be a silver HN White King 'Giant' with a trigger on the 1st slide But I don't have any sousa gigs anymore

I'd look into doing the same if I had a large piston BBb tuba.

[iiipopes]

Have you read my threads about how I have my upper valve souzy slides converted to moveable slides instead of being hard soldered? Especially on a Conn wrap 1st valve slide, it lays perfectly at the left hand and is very, very easy to adjust intonation. The others can be set where desired. For example, this thread: viewtopic.php?p=92067 third post down.

Yes, I've read several times on here that you had the 1st slide made movable on your 36k, which I think is great

The old HN White King 1250 sousa had the 1st upper slide movable, and that model was/is arguably the most in tune sousa. The later 2350 is the same overall model, but with a few small changes, including making the upper 1st slide soldered/immovable. It would be great to find a nice 1250 and install a trigger on the 1st slide, then your low B and E naturals will be in tune with the 123 combos.
The very ultimate sousa for me would be a silver HN White King 'Giant' with a trigger on the 1st slide But I don't have any sousa gigs anymore

I'd look into doing the same if I had a large piston BBb tuba.

The problem with the King sousaphone, and I marched with them all four years in high school in the late 70's, which is actually the horn I learned to play low brass on, and played several since, both ancient and modern, is that you really can't grab the first valve slide to "ride throttle" like you can on a Conn. This means a player wanting to modify a King has much more cost in designing, fitting, and installing a trigger instead of having it immediately to hand. I do agree that they do play well in tune, especially when you set the 3rd valve slide long to play 2+3 notes in tune, or even slightly flat, so that 1+3 and 1+2+3 notes can be lipped with minimal effort, if you don't have a loop slide or have a kicker.

[tclements]

More = better!

[catgrowlB]

The problem with the King sousaphone, and I marched with them all four years in high school in the late 70's, which is actually the horn I learned to play low brass on, and played several since, both ancient and modern, is that you really can't grab the first valve slide to "ride throttle" like you can on a Conn. This means a player wanting to modify a King has much more cost in designing, fitting, and installing a trigger instead of having it immediately to hand. I do agree that they do play well in tune, especially when you set the 3rd valve slide long to play 2+3 notes in tune, or even slightly flat, so that 1+3 and 1+2+3 notes can be lipped with minimal effort, if you don't have a loop slide or have a kicker.

In middle school, we had an old 'Continental Colonial' (Pan American/14k stencil), and Conn 20k sousas.
At my high school, we had 5 silver King sousas -- 3 of them were late Seeburg/early UMI - era King 2350s, and 2 HN White sousas -- a 1250, and a 1270 'Giant'. The 2350s were already refurbished before I got there, and they had the 2 older/nicer HN White sousas refurbished my freshman year. I played the 1250 and 1270 'Giant' my 4 years in high school. Later -- at the first college I attended -- I was pleasantly surprised that we had nice old satin silver HN White King 1250s to play on. That college also had at least a couple old satin silver Conn 20k sousas, and a messed up silver York 'monster' sousa, but we played on the Kings.

I think it would be perfectly viable to attach a trigger mechanism to the lower 1st slide on any King BBb sousa. Adams has already done that with their big 20k- ish sousa, I see no reason why it can't be done on most any other BBb sousa for a serious player. I also see that as a great option for many BBb tubas

[bloke]

King sousaphones play In tune just about the best of any and I like their smaller body and smaller bore "punch" and clarity.
Several times I've already mentioned that I have a big plastic storage bin (one of those designed to slip under a bed, yet sitting out in the shop) of a bunch of scrounged parts which is enough to build a King brass sousaphone, and I have a really good lightweight later-vintage King sousaphone bell in the house waiting for it.
The valve section is pretty cool, because it's one of the old 1250 ones with the wider main tuning slide so as a player's index finger fits the bow and it's much easier to pull (vs. 2350).
I'm sure I will shorten the first and third circuits when I build it, and those sousaphones from that era ALREADY FEATURE AN UPPER #1 SLIDE (as well as all the other upper return bows being factory slides as well).
(5-star smiley rating)
The false tones are also excellent.
I had one of the really heavy-bell brass ones (a full - no fooling no exaggeration - 30 lbs.) but sort of leaky valves, I had one of the really lightweight 1970s fiberglass ones... Both played well (in spite of the slightly leaky valves on the brass one), but I sold both of them.
This one will be lighter than 30 lbs., because of the two-piece later-vintage soldered bell made of thinner sheet metal.

I don't know when I'm going to get it going, but I'd like to think that I'll have it put together in time for an October fun twin-spin gig up at a huge arts and crafts festival in the extreme northwest corner of Tennessee at a place called Reelfoot Lake (has become an annual gig, I've talked about it before, late morning is dixieland - sousaphone or tuba - in the area where all the food vendors are, and afternoon is on stage with my oldies band playing bass guitar).

ALWAYS BACK TO THE THREAD TOPIC:
As far as five valve BB-flat tubas are concerned, it seems to me that I'm allowed to be considered a serious resource (though everyone's experiences are real to them and thus valid though totally different things come into play with other lengths of tubas, thus I would consider those opinions to be off topic ), because I have one (not Chinese, but German, handmade, and not cheap) 6/4 size 5 valve BB-flat with an adjusted whole tone 5th valve and one 4/4 size 5-valve BB-flat (which I assembled from vintage USA parts throughout) with an adjusted semitone 5th valve, and I rarely drag either one of them out unless remuneration is involved. I altered the whole tone 5th valve to be easier to deal with the workarounds, and it's great, but the adjusted semitone 5th valve >>> specifically on a BB flat <<< is the way to go.
(just sayin'... again...and for THE LAST TIME in this thread)

[the elephant]

I really like the Yamaha idea and might apply it to my 5-valved tubas, whereby the 5th is cut to a long half-step (or is it a sharp one?) and an extension to allow it to be used as a flat whole step. I like your idea, but I still like the flat 1, so maybe a flat 2 that could be switched over to a flat 1 at need would work if the setup allowed for that.

[tubanh84]

Late to the party here, but my guess would be that you could have the same or better intonation with a 2nd valve slide kicker on a BBb and make it fully chromatic even in the pedal register.

There would be some trade-offs. I do like being able to use the 5th valve to keep some passages in the same partial where they would otherwise dip down and then back up. I like it for trills sometimes.

The one thing that jumped to my mind was if I was on the audition circuit, would Ride be able to be consistent playing with the quick shifts from 2-3 to 2-4 or would 2-3 to 1-2-3 work? I wouldn't trust my pinky, and the physiological connection between the pinky and ring finger makes it unlikely that it would ever be as consistent as using a thumb. Maybe with a slide pull, 1-2-3 could be in tune. But 2-3 to 2-3-5 is much easier to me. I only say this half jokingly, as the panels usually put a ton of weight on Ride.

[bloke]

I really like the Yamaha idea and might apply it to my 5-valved tubas, whereby the 5th is cut to a long half-step (or is it a sharp one?) and an extension to allow it to be used as a flat whole step. I like your idea, but I still like the flat 1, so maybe a flat 2 that could be switched over to a flat 1 at need would work if the setup allowed for that.

The 4/4 is out in the shop (I still haven't redone the 5th linkage to my much better plan)...but I have plenty of 3/4-inch bore inside-outside tubing to build a "piggyback" extension for such a conversion, and there's easily room for that as well. (This is the planned-on-the-fly tuba, but I suppose - ?? I've done enough "builds" over the years (not as many as our friend in Louisville, as I never built any of them with the intention of selling them) so as I can avoid building - "painting" - myself into corners.

That said, the low E-flat is 2, 4 (with a three-inch pull and a stop-rod mounted up there) and 5. I find little call for it when prostituting myself artiste-ically, and (even for one piece) I'd had to sacrifice the luxurious 1-3-5 B and (if in the music) 4-5 low E.

I suppose I could build the optional extension - and even a place to store it on the instrument...but I built that thing pretty sturdy (pretty thick sheet metal caps on BOTH the lower AND upper outer bows, as well as a bunch of (stolen from Olds contra GG bugles) guard wire, and ALREADY weighs 24 lbs. Were I to build that device and did NOT store it on-board, (you know damn well) I would LOSE it.

summary: I wouldn't use it.
another summary: (not Wade, but...) it's probably difficult for C players to conceptualize of there being very little use for a "long whole step" on a tuba of another length.

[dp]

So how many people really have a factory-built 5-banger BBflat tuba? Factory or custom, they can't possibly have become common without my noticing. I don't think I have seen the big Kaiser tubas with a fifth valve. The first time I saw a 5-valve BBflat (186) was probably 10 years after high school. Honestly since then in the few times someone in section has had a five valve BBflat, I have never noticed something attributable one way or another to that 5th valve on that fellow bandmate's horn. At all. Did something happen to the website? I came here to read about 5 valve horns and its sousaphones now ?!?

[bloke]

@dp
Dale,
The first one I saw was in a cage and the instrument room at Memphis State University... It was a B flat 186 with 5 valves.
Of course the fifth valve was left hand activated.

("University of Memphis"... Remember when all the state universities decided to change their names so they would appear to be more uppity than they actually are, as Great Grade Inflation Farce continued upward and onward ?)

... probably when I was in about the 10th grade, was over there for some high school band blah-blah, and decided to snoop around.

4 valve tubas - unless they are four valve compensating or have a really easy to use main slide trigger or something or other - really aren't much good.
Because the fourth partial tends to be flat, one and three usually works pretty well for C, low F isn't played all that often but it does fix low F, both of the 2-4 valve combinations are still going to be terribly sharp (B-flat tuba, probably about 6 inches of tubing shy of being in tune), down in the double low range you look into a fairly close 2-3-4 D, but nothing else down there is going to be in tune with any valve combination.
... so - with a B flat tuba (and without about as much slide manipulation as would be required on a three valve instrument to play one of those in tune), all a fourth-valve-only really accomplishes is to fix low F.

Okay... It does decrease the chances of a strong wind blowing the instrument away, and it makes the instrument look (and be) more expensive.

My good friend, this is the truth, and you can't just "pfft" the truth away. Not even the big bad wolf can do that.

[prodigal]

Hey, hey, the big bad Wolfe started this thread!

[marccromme]

and it's great, but the adjusted semitone 5th valve >>> specifically on a BB flat <<< is the way to go.
(just sayin'... again...and for THE LAST TIME in this thread)

Really, really last time in this thread??? You are a gentleman.

[dp]

<snip>
4 valve tubas - unless they are four valve compensating or have a really easy to use main slide trigger or something or other - really aren't much good.
Because the fourth partial tends to be flat, one and three usually works pretty well for C, low F isn't played all that often but it does fix low F, both of the 2-4 valve combinations are still going to be terribly sharp (B-flat tuba, probably about 6 inches of tubing shy of being in tune), down in the double low range you look into a fairly close 2-3-4 D, but nothing else down there is going to be in tune with any valve combination.
... so - with a B flat tuba (and without about as much slide manipulation as would be required on a three valve instrument to play one of those in tune), all a fourth-valve-only really accomplishes is to fix low F.
Okay... It does decrease the chances of a strong wind blowing the instrument away, and it makes the instrument look (and be) more expensive.
My good friend, this is the truth, and you can't just "pfft" the truth away. Not even the big bad wolf can do that.

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[bloke]

[Bob Kolada]

The European guys who play giant Bb tubas seem to be generally happy with 4 valves (though I recall one of the MW Bb's had an optional removable dependent 5th. The guy that's been posted on here, Frederic, has his horn set up with a side first kicker so his hand can sit on the 4th valve slide and still use the kicker. He also has his 2nd valve slide rotated so he can use his thumb to move it, something that I think would be analogous to driving on the left hand of the road for the first time for a lot of us.

To be fair a lot of that seems to be because of a known repertoire and guys having to ride the slides anyway (though the newer horns seem better). 'if I have to move 1 and 3 all the time then I don't care if I have to double pull for low C'

Let's throw another bump in this- what about a two tone fifth like old Miraphones (we got a new rotary PT6 in like maybe 2012 that came with that one on the horn) or a SIXTH valve? That seems like a great option for active brass band parts, iirc B&S made the only ones I've seen and those might not be the ideal tool for the job.