4 vs. 5 valve on BBb tubas?

[prodigal]

Just inquiring about the use of a 5th valve on a BBb tuba. 5 valves are really useful (ok kinda necessary) on a CC, what would a fifth help with on a BBb?

(I only had 4 valves back in the day on BBb, just trying to learn more.)

Thanks!

[bloke]

I recommend an F semitone 5th valve for B flat tuba.

135 for B natural just below the staff.
45 for low E.

245 for low E flat (requires a pull of the fourth slide)

"old faithful" 234 for low D

The B natural and E natural are the two most commonly played pitches which would use the fifth valve, and are the most difficult problems to solve, intonation wise. This configuration offers dead on intonation for those two pitches.

(I use this length on one of my five valve B flat instruments.
There's room on my instrument to extend that circuit to the typical "long whole step" link, but doing that would defeat what the other length accomplishes, in exchange for a double low E flat which didn't require any tuning adjustment. B natural and E natural are found in written tuba music far more often than is a double low E flat.)

[davidgilbreath]

As someone that played only 4 valve CC tubas from 1988 to 2020, I can say that a 5 valve BBb is just something you need if you want the horn to be more heavy

On my Eastman I can a really nice low C playing 1224 with a 1at valve slide pull.

I'm not sure in 40 years of playing I've ever seen a low B.

Maybe one...on a Pixar concert

[gocsick]

I put a 5th valve on my MW20... It really didn't need one... I just wanted to do it basically as a learning and engineering exercise. The biggest use for me is B(1) and E(1) bel using 2+3+5...

[bort2.0]

I agree with @LeMark -- sounds heavy.

And not just more weight to drag around, but also could deaden the response of the entire horn. My old PT6 had the long and short 5th valve slides. The long added literally about 1 pound to the weight of the horn and completely changed how it played. I like the long 5th valve better, but it wasn't worth it..

[OhTubaGuy]

With a little slide pulling, a 4v BBb will cover most bases.

5v or compensating 4v BBb makes sense for competitive brass band literature or if you prefer less slide pulling.

[the elephant]

My take on this — after decades of playing on 5-valved CC tubas — is that the 5th valve originally struck me as a way to increase the ease of the low register. It was a means to avoid some slide pulls to make it physically easier to play down there. It was a nice option to have on a good tuba. I was not alone in this feeling, as there were still a lot of 4-valved CC tubas in use back when I was still riding around on the back of a dinosaur.

Now I see the 5th valve as a common-sense approach to fixing a lot of things in that register that really are not optional. It is not to help a few specific pitches, but to help smooth out an entire register. Today, I could get by on a CC tuba with only four valves, but why would I want to? A 5th valve gives you a lot more facility once you get used to it.

I feel it has become that way on BBb tubas as well today. As the BBb tubas available to us in the US have improved beyond mostly being institutional instruments, and more of them offer 5th valves as an option or even as standard equipment, why would you *not* have one if it is available?

I say, if it is already on the horn, it is a fine asset. If you like the horn, get it. Do not bother looking for the same model with four valves. If you are looking at ordering a new horn, get the 5th. If you are looking at two similar versions of the same model and they play (for you) equally well, and one has a 5th, get it.

If you want a horn with 4 valves and it is very easy to add a 5th (a Mirahone 186 or an Alex 163, for example) and have the large amount of cash needed to have one added (well over a grand nowadays, and closer to two thousand for parts and labor), then have it done. If you like a 4-banger and it is not easy or cheap to add a 5th, then leave it as it is and work on your intonation in the low range until you are happy with it.

It is not yet a "necessary" box to tick for a BBb tuba just yet, IMHO — but it is becoming more important and desirable.

[Mary Ann]

For me, at my level of amateurism, the weight is what matters most, because I have to lift the stupid thing multiple times in a rehearsal. I like my four valve BBb and can do anything I want, at my level, with it.
I rarely use the 5th valve on the NStar, finding it less stuffy using the "regular" valves most of the time. I would have bought a four valve, in retrospect, for the Eb part in the brass band, were it available -- but it's not.

[marccromme]

I play a 5 valve MW Eb tuba, a 5 valve B&S CC Tuba, and a 4 valve B&S BBb Tuba. Guess what I miss the most there: the 5th flat whole step valve.

Especially in sharp scales, where shifting from 2+3 c sharp to 2+4 b natural is a nightmare. Or 2+3 f sharp to 2+4 e natural, equally bad in fast passages. Much easier if I could use a 5 th valve shift from 2+3 to 2+3+5.

So, my next BBb tuba will definitely be with 5 valves.

[bloke]

I replied specifically in regards to a B-flat tuba, and based on thinking about it for quite a while prior to setting one up in just the way I recommended (as it has proven to be just as advantageous as I predicted it would be).

My advice and preference does not pertain to F, E-flat nor C instruments.

I suppose if someone doesn't really care about dialing in B-flat tuba *B-natural and *E-natural intonation , it doesn't pertain to those either.

B&E.jpg (15.33 KiB) Viewed 16633 times

I agree that a full chromatic range to double-low B-natural is sorta silly. Even with a 5-string bass guitar - with a mirror range - the only reason (in my view) that B-natural and even C and C-sharp are there is so that D and E-flat (viable) are in place (with the lower pitches sitting down there simply to keep the open string tuning ratios symmetrical). Below that (moving back to TUBA), only composers/arrangers who don't know any better write in that range (other than show-off solos or special effects, etc.) whereby (in the same way) many of the bass guitarists who spend much time playing below D-natural are heard playing in gospel churches.
_____________________
*non-adjusted 2-4 being several inches too short, and the (B-flat tuba F whole-tone set-up) 5-2-3 thing being a somewhat too long.
I have some fairly serious time/money invested in B-flat tubas, take playing them pretty seriously, and prefer that my tuning be as good as I can possibly manage.

I've never thought 5th valves as "range extending". Rather, I've always viewed them as "intonation compensating".
C tubas box 5th valve designers into a corner as - with C tubas (even with 4-valves) there is no viable (very commonly-written in tuba music) "low F" (without have to reach for and pull some slide). 4-valve B-flat tubas feature a viable low F, so (as it's already there) logically a 5th valve should be rethought to address the NEXT MOST URGENT tuning issue (again, which is the epic inadequacy of the 2-4 valve combination).

re: ONE SPECIFIC MODEL OF B-flat tuba (the long-discontinued Holton model 345)...
These offer the really low- E-flat (four valves) without any trouble, as the #1 slide on this model is tremendously long (and conscientious players are already going to have their hand on that slide). That said (again) WITHOUT a 5th valve, the B and E (pictured above) are still going to suffer, as (as tremendously long as the 1st slide is on this model) I don't believe the 1st slide is long enough for the 1-2-3 valve combination to play the B and E down to pitch. Further, this particular model (being basically a sousaphone taper bent into a concert tuba) were anyone desirous of playing pitches below (2-3-4) D, the false/privilege tones on B-flat tubas of this size and shape (not so much with the similar C instruments, though "pretty good" on some of those) are magnificent.

[marccromme]

Bloke, I read your lips, for your discussion of the BBb tuba, and agree that the most intonation suffering tones ton a 4 valve BBb are E and H natural. Isolated to a BBb instrument your argumentation for a long half step 5 th valve is perfect.

But you assume that 2+3+5 is always insanely to deep, which it is not on both my two other sized Eb and CC tubas. I can easily tune 2+3+5 slightly flat, and 4+5 slightly sharp, on both tubas, such that both are easy to slot into tune with very minimal lip bending.

In addition, it would be a hassle to play two tubas with long whole step 5 th valve, and one with long half step.

So, I stand on my point of view: the thing I miss most on my BBb tuba is a long whole step 5th valve.

Well, maybe also on my whishlist it being a 5/4 BBb tuba, not a 4/4 as it is.

[bloke]

235 (the "long whole step") can work pretty well for the (B flat tuba) low E, but it's usually going to prove to be too long for B natural, because - with most tubas - that overtone (third partial) is going to be significantly flat by the time that much cylindrical tubing is added (and already tends flat on quite a few instruments with the "open" F pitch).

It's most often not quite serendipitous enough whereby the third partial is going to be flat enough whereby 2-4 (being too short) - and the third partial with the extra cylindrical tubing being too flat - will perfectly cancel themselves out

Notice that I suggested 1-3-5 (F semitone) for B natural and 4-5 for E natural (re: a large percentage of instruments).

There's also the phenomenon of us being able to blow pitches sharp, whereby even if 2-3-5 is flat for B natural, if we really "stomp on it", not controlling our embouchure, we can end up with a B natural pitch that's just about spot on in tune at fortissimo.

Tubas are weird, yes?

Think about this:
I just bought a five-string bass guitar in a pawn shop for very casual money. It's the cheapest grade that this particular manufacturer makes. It doesn't feature fanned frets or anything like that that assists in better intonation. (I do have it set up the best it can possibly be set up, because I know how to do that.)
ALL OF THAT SAID, with strings on it that I have no idea how old they are, it plays better in tune - all the way up and down all five strings (even up to the 24th frets) - than do the overwhelming majority of tuba players playing the overwhelming majority of tubas.

[bloke]

Wade only "thanked" my response because I actually addressed the specific issue brought up in the initial post.

...unlike this one:

[the elephant]

What Joe is after is the wonderfulness of a 6-valve system without the burden of the almost useless (on something as low as a BBb tuba) 5th valve. If you can get used to it, the 6th valve can replace some of the utility of the 5th valve, just using different valve combinations, AND it can offer the benefits he describes.

Joe has set up his big boy BBb as a 6 -valve BBb with an absent 5th valve.

WITH THAT IN MIND…

In decades past, when these "extra" valves were in their infancy, a lot of times German makers would have options for various lengths for the 5th slide, to include a flat whole step, a flat half step, and a sharp major 3rd.

Some creative guys in the early 1980s decided this needed to be streamlined, so a winner needed to be picked, and all horns from them would then come set up that way by default, and anything else was an upcharged option requiring a special order. They also did this with leadpipes. Horns from this company came from the factory with three leadpipes and two (at least) 5th valve slides.

Yamaha did (and still does) this with the 621 F tuba (and maybe the big one?). I never used the half-step 5th slide, so I do not know whether it was a flat or sharp half step, but (as mentioned above) having something other than the familiar flat whole step was too much for my tiny, smooth brain, so I went with the flat whole step.

Back to the "experimental company" (in a certain very cold state)…

I think I was told by one of these guys that after a certain number of years (or months, whatever) they mailed some buyers a survey form to find out which leadpipes and 5th slides were the most commonly used. There was surprising agreement, and those choices became what comes on those tubas today, albeit the hardware needed to remove them was no longer included.

True?

I don't really know, but it sounds logical to me.

So Joe's setup (more or less) has been used in the past, but was less popular than the flat whole step, so makers no longer offer it by default. I imagine it is not even offered unless you bribe the shop foreman at the factory.

I once owned a nice MW-32 that had a flat half-step 5th valve, and it was very useful, but my other CC tubas had flat whole steps, so that was an eventual deal-breaker for me.

Now, if I could set up all of my horns this way, I would, but I like the flat whole step, too. So I would rather have all 6-valved horns, which would be ideal, if not for the weight and for figuring out the problems of linkages, levers, and such.

I added a 6th valve to my F tuba years ago after years of consideration, having had a few minutes to toot on Joe's wonderful B&S Symphonie. Joe's ideas on how to think about using these valves made me completely rethink my earlier ideas, and so I wanted to try them out. I am happy to say that I will never go back to a 5-valved F tuba.

In fact, now I want to add a 6th valve to a CC to see what that would be like. I have that Mirafone 186 that I cut from BBb to CC (just for fun), and it plays very well. Shifting the valve section up or down by about .5" would add enough room for a 6th valve and slide circuit, so maybe this will happen one day.

Having an in-tune whole step in the low register is excellent. (Whole steps are by far the most common found in Western "art music".) Adding an in-tune half step to that would be great.

But choosing between the two, for me? It seems that having a longer interval down low is more useful for higher tubas, while a shorter one works better for low tubas. The help the longer valves give to the player is sort of lost on a BBb tuba, but that half-step pitch correction is really sweet on the E and B, as Joe pointed out.

Again, I say that Joe's big boy is a 6-valve BBb that is missing the 5th valve..

[arpthark]

I used to own a PT-20P CC tuba. The setup of the B&S piston horns actually makes it fairly ergonomic to adjust the third valve slide while playing, which I did for the prerequisite/ubiquitous Eb/Ab discrepancy for 2-3 combos, and also allowed me to push in for a nice, in-tune 2-3-5 Db and pull out for low Gb.

Nowadays my 4v Piggy has a second slide kicker and I’m going to put one on my 4v Rudi as well. Then, the only slide pulling required is to push 1 for an in-tune 1-2-4 low F.

The only five valve CC tuba I currently own is an old Miraphone with the long 5th valve length, and that’s probably going to be on the chopping block soon, anyway.

[bloke]

It's logical to assume that, but I actually left the 98's 5th valve alone (OTHER THAN blah, blah-blah, and blah-blah-blah, which define it as much more useful than it would have otherwise been...too much technical "blah-blah-blah-blah-duh-blough !")...actually I rebuilt it (still as a LONG whole tone) but actually LENGTHENED it - whereby most of the pitches involved defined that slide (then) as pushed all the way IN, will plenty of room to PULL it out for a 2nd partial 5-2-3-4 "double low C" (if desired), though 3rd valve (alone - fake fingering) is just about as good). the overloop was also made into a SLIDE (rather than a "hard" overloop) so-as to micro-adjust where "pushed all the way in" actually is. (so there you have it: ALL of the "blah-blah-blah-blah-duh-blough !"

I'm able to COMPROMISE on the 98 between the 4th circuit being ALMOST long enough to work with 2-4 (for B-natural) whereas the LOW range (4th circuit with OTHER valves) finds a few things hovering between barely flat to in-tune (and - yes? - it's REALLY easy to favor the extreme low range sharper). ...The 2-4 B-natural "compromise" is mostly enabled by decision to define 1-3 (with a significant pull) as the PRIMARY valve combination for C (rather than 4th valve). Of course, 4 is a handy alternate.

It's the stubby Holton with the adjusted semitone valve.
(Were I to to choose between the two, I would choose to keep THIS one. ' anyone interested in buying a God-inspired 6/4 BB-flat tuba?)

Several people warned me off of doing the SEMI-tone 5th valve (when building the Holton)..."It will be hard to learn" (etc., etc. etc...), while here I am (nearly 70) struggling through remembering how to play bass guitar WHILE being challenged to play music on that instrument that's more difficult that any I played as a young man and - JUST NOW - adding a 5th string (analogous to a 5th valve).
also, this: I STILL OWN AND USE "tuba" instruments built in THREE DIFFERENT OPEN LENGTHS, and one would be challenged to find two (same length or no) with identical valve systems.
My brain NEEDS this sort of stuff. I've paid attention to those who've warned me that it's extremely easy to "go stale" as one ages. (As I've already told Wade) I've mostly ducked out of the "symphonic" stuff (it no longer stimulates my mind, I tend to view it - consider the hours and the pay - as "all-state for grown-ups"...sorry but yes, and those things put me far away from home for several hours at a time - as well as overnight - whereby I was away from the stuff that I do which actually pays duh billz. (I'm still doing a little bit of it, but just turned down one - for all these reasons - whereby a 2-1/2-hours polka band gig - no rehearsals, and only fifty minutes from blokeplace) will only pay $100 less than a 1-1/2 day "symphonic ordeal" 1-3/4ths hours away from blokeplace.
================================
BUT I really-REALLY DIGRESSED, AND BACK TO THE SUB-TOPIC AT HAND...
Way back during caveman/dinosaur days, I put a 5th rotor on my 184 C (parts ordered through Sun Valley, Calif.) I was lucky (no experience) that I didn't ruin the instrument. Its the one that Ron Bishop eventually ended up with. I knew NOTHING of super-fancy F tubas with 4+2 systems (though I'd seen a couple of pictures), and realized that - in order to play a series of rehearsals and performances of the COMPLETE OPERA (loaded with super-low tuba solos passages) L'amour des trois oranges - I was going to have to add SOMETHING OR OTHER to that instrument. As a few are aware (who've intermediarily owned or have seen it), I made TWO slides for it (adjusted semitone and adjusted whole tone). I used both (neither exclusively) from then on. In the opera itself (first use with the added 5th valve) there really are NOT that many low F-naturals (you know: mostly "wire-band keys), so I used the adjusted semitone slide. If there happened to be a random low F in that opera, I pulled out the long/slanted-angle 4th valve slide on the back (which was lined up and moved quickly, as - for years - I played it as a FOUR-valve tuba, and had to move that slide OUT to play "low F").

sub-sub-sub-topic: WARNING...POLITICS !!!
As much as we LOVED our 184 C "fake F tubas" (in the 1970's, before the remarkably accessible - playing-wise - B&S "Symphonie" F tubas found their way to the US), the 184 overall intonation characteristics sure sucks, does it not? (and the same goes for the B-flat version).

FINAL THOUGHTS:
While typing this nonsensical unorganized blather (after Sunday-repairing some horns for a band director who I know is going to flip them - which sorta pisses me off...and no, they do NOT belong to his school), Mrs. bloke handed me a delicious plate consisting of a chicken breast (from one of those ready-to-eat grocery store whole chickens, though marked down to $2), some steamed broccoli, and some mashed potatoes (with beef gravy on the potatoes, as well as on the chicken breast). LIFE'S...LITTLE...PLEASURES...

POST-FINAL THOUGHTS:
This morning, I did "this-and-that" to the (it's only a 4-ton) unit on the HOT AFTERNOON (west) side of the house (whereby the morning sun one on the east side is a 5-ton...so they SHOULD be mounted on opposite sides, yes?) I was FINALLY able to get the temperature to "hold" (though the 98-degrees-in-the-shade DIRECT sunlight on the unit) at 76 degrees (no flat ceiling anywhere in this house...the peak is 23 feet high...so VERY challenging to cool off). Previous to me "doing stuff" the coolest I could get it to "do" (under these challenging conditions) was 80 degrees. There's also a 3-ton unit for two or three upstairs rooms and a balcony. ALL THREE units are 26 years old. (the A-coil in the upstairs unit sprung a leak JUST THIS SUMMER, I bought one online, silver-soldered it in, filled the system back up (with my 30-year-old huge jug of R-22) and it's rockin' and rollin' again. The 4-ton one on the WEST side: Over the years, I've replaced its compressor, its blower fan, and its heat exchanger...STILL WAY CHEAPER than replacing it.

RHEEM - Fort Smith, Arkansas

[prodigal]

Thanks, learning a lot here!

[iiipopes]

My experiences of playing tuba/sousaphone for over fifty years:
1) I play tuba in a community band. I have played several instruments over the years, including my current Jupiter JTU1110 and a rebuilt/restored real Conn 36K sousaphone.
2) The effective bottom note for all of these arrangements and repertoire is the F below open BBb, fingered either 4th valve alone, or 1+3 on a sousaphone, pulling 1st valve as necessary for intonation.
3) The purpose of a 5th valve "long whole step" functions the same as on a CC tuba, but one step lower, so the combination of T+4 is the low Eb below open BBb.
4) See above: I almost never play low Eb below low open BBb in community band. I am the only tuba, and I almost never drop the octave, except maybe the occasional cadential note, because all it does is cause mud and doesn't properly support the ensemble. And I never play it in an outdoor setting, because it simply doesn't carry, however good the sound shell may be - or not. If I have to, in order to assure proper support, I have even taken low Ab, G, Gb, and F below open BBb up an octave for clarity outdoors.
5) Summary: unless you are playing in a German/Austrian orchestra, which prefer BBb tubas, in an auditorium that has superlative acoustics, it has no practical value in the typical American concert band. Unsubstantiated legend: even Sousa gave up on the singular EEB tuba in the UK, because he realized it was too difficult to transport, and, again, really had no practical value, just as an oddity. That instrument at Harvard has now been restored, again, to novelty status. I have seen only one piece in the last twenty or thirty years, Lincolnshire Posy by Grainger, that actually scores a low Eb, so play it 1+2+4 on a standard BBb tuba. If that tends to be flat, arch the back of your tongue slightly to increase the air velocity and bring it up to pitch, although probably nobody will notice. For one piece in that many years, it is not worth purchasing a 5th valve, either because of cost or the extra weight of the valve and circuit tubing, contrasted by the ease of valve substitution 1-2-4.
6) Epilogue: most sousaphones have great privilege pitches, so if you are tasked with the low Eb or the low D on a sousaphone, you can play privilege open for Eb, 2nd valve for D, 1st valve for Db, all again obviating the need for a 5th "long whole step" valve.

[marccromme]

You play in an US community band, and that takes you not lower than FF below BBb - and you are happy with the priviledged notes of your sousa.

Well, that is all fine and swell, buuut modern UK Brass Band pieces go sometimes deeper, as does classical literature. For example the Crespo 'Etude im Stil Bruckners' - which is a low brass sextett - goes down to CCC below BBb - one note above the first pedal tone on a BBb tuba.

Playable, but pretty tricky on a bass bone, so you want to give this part to a contrabass trombone in a trombone sextett, or to a contrabass tuba in an tuba/euph sextett. And here we are with the need to play chromatically down almost to the first pedal on a BBb tuba.

And no, I don't want to mess with priviledged tones in Brass Band literature, or in Crespo, at least, I woun't like it due to agility, secure centering and messy fingering issues.

But if your repertoire does not require it, of course a 4-valve BBb tuba or sousa is sufficient ... it all boils down to what you want to play ...

CRESPO Bruckner Etude for Low Brass - "The President's Own" United States Marine Band
5 trombones + tuba

Crespo Etude im Stil Bruckners - Tubassodors
6 tuba

[bloke]

Most of us (who maintain secure low range playing) practice (at home) down to c. F below the 88 key piano keyboard range, yet rarely encounter anything written below D - at least not in for-remuneration played sheet music.