Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

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JCTuba67
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by JCTuba67 »

russiantuba wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2026 6:39 am JC,

If you actually read my post, you would realize that I was giving my experiences, discussions and research I have had on the topic, mentioning my strong background with buzzing, why I pulled away, and even taught it for a while when I did.

Buzzing is a controversial opinion in the brass world. I remember when Christian Lindberg announced he didn’t buzz and seems against it, there were attacks on his pedagogic mockeries. Many people I have met who don’t buzz have been closeted until more recently on the topic because they have been attacked on the topic.

This goes the same in many fields, even science, where people accept something as a truth, a fact, a requirement. Buzzing is sure that. A teacher would say you must buzz this, it makes you better, and anyone who challenges it would be bad. I know this because I was once one of those people. All my professors buzzed, other mentors and pedagogical schools I follow seemed to enforce it.

It was in fact, when my best friend got focal dystonia and went to Jan Kagarice, again the foremost expert on the topic, who mentioned it was a unhealthy practice, that caused me to think about what buzzing does and if it is needed, and though I still defended it and thought the same as you, I tried not doing it. I heard such improvements in his playing. Then, I had positive improvements in mine. Do you personally know or interact with someone who has focal dystonia? It is something I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy, seeing their strong ability take a total dive, and not only that, the mental and personal frustrations that arise from that. I know Jan studies it from the neurological level, and if I recall correctly, it causes certain triggers associated with dystonia. Again, it might not cause it with someone.

Pedagogically, I stopped teaching it because I believe there should be natural flow and input should feel as natural and the same as playing.

I’ve gotten used to it by now where I present something with buzzing, and those who swear by buzzing are triggered by it. I’ve been on both sides, and I feel it is equally important to give the opposing view so others are informed and can decide to make their own views. There is a euphonium player I know who studied with Kleinhammer, and when someone says something or plays something not as Kleinhammer would have said or done, he claims they are wrong and misinformed. Part of collectively growing as a person, but more so as a musician, is learning about multiple ways of doing things that work for several people and being aware of them.

Have you ever read David Vining’s The Breathing Book? I read it this past summer, and he debunks several myths from a scientific standpoint. Some I still teach, others I’ve adopted over the years through research, and some of those I’ve mentioned and received similar responses as this thread. I should warn you, if you are triggered by someone not buzzing, this book might need a warning label.

In fact, I recall you are in Ohio. I would love to meet up with you and discuss more and even give you the breathing book copy I have.
James, I read what you wrote. I understood what you wrote. I just don’t agree with you.

You have got to stop this business of telling people they “didn’t read” your post every time they push back on something you say. You do it constantly, and after a while it comes off as awfully entitled. It’s as if you think the only possible reason somebody could disagree with you is because they’re too stupid to understand what you wrote.

Come on.

People can read every word, understand it just fine, and still think you’re wrong.

And this “you’re triggered” stuff is getting pretty old too. At some point it starts sounding a little lunatic. Not because you don’t like buzzing. Nobody cares if you buzz or not. It’s because you seem unable to accept ordinary disagreement without turning it into some story about the other person not understanding you.

Now, I’ll give you this: buzzing is not mandatory. Never has been. Plenty of wonderful brass players hardly buzz at all, and plenty of wonderful teachers don’t make much use of it. Fine. No argument there.

But then you go from that perfectly reasonable point to talking about buzzing as though it’s some sort of unhealthy neurological hazard, and that is where you lose me.

If you’re going to start bringing focal dystonia into it and calling buzzing an unhealthy practice, then you need more than stories about somebody you know, or what one teacher said, or what Christian Lindberg does. That’s not science. That’s anecdote.

Your friend stopped buzzing and improved. Good. I’m glad he did. Maybe buzzing was bad for him. Maybe it was part of the problem. Maybe stopping it helped him reset. All of that is possible.

But that does not mean buzzing is unhealthy for everybody else.

Same thing with you. You say you stopped buzzing and played better. Fine. I believe you. But your personal experience is not a universal law of brass playing.

And this habit of throwing out names Rocco, Kagarice, Vining, Lindberg like the discussion is supposed to end there doesn’t help your case. These are respected people, not tablets from Mount Sinai.

If there is actual neurological research showing that ordinary mouthpiece buzzing causes focal dystonia, contributes to focal dystonia, or is broadly unhealthy for brass players, then put it on the table. I’ll read it.

But if there isn’t, then quit talking as if the matter has been settled.

That’s the problem I have with your argument. You spend a lot of time complaining about dogma while sounding pretty dogmatic yourself.

And as for your suggestion that we meet up since we’re both in Ohio, I’m going to pass on that. I’ve had quite a few people in the community warn me, very plainly, to keep my distance from you. I don’t know every side of every story, but when that many people independently give me the same advice, I’m going to heed it. There’s no reason for this to go beyond a disagreement on a forum.

Buzz if it helps you. Don’t buzz if it doesn’t. Teach it, don’t teach it. Fine. But stop acting like anybody who disagrees with you didn’t read what you wrote. We read it.

We just don’t buy all of it.


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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by russiantuba »

JCTuba67 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2026 7:35 am
And as for your suggestion that we meet up since we’re both in Ohio, I’m going to pass on that. I’ve had quite a few people in the community warn me, very plainly, to keep my distance from you.
Sometimes writing doesn’t communicate messages as fully intended as verbal. Glad to know people I likely have never met nor don’t know are talking bad about me and you judge a book by the cover. You are confirming the reason why many people professionally in the field don’t come here.

I guess since I am being told to keep my distance, I should keep my distance from the forum so I don’t offend others.
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JCTuba67 (Fri Sep 11, 2026 8:46 am)
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by JCTuba67 »

russiantuba wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2026 8:42 am
JCTuba67 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2026 7:35 am
And as for your suggestion that we meet up since we’re both in Ohio, I’m going to pass on that. I’ve had quite a few people in the community warn me, very plainly, to keep my distance from you.
Sometimes writing doesn’t communicate messages as fully intended as verbal. Glad to know people I likely have never met nor don’t know are talking bad about me and you judge a book by the cover. You are confirming the reason why many people professionally in the field don’t come here.

I guess since I am being told to keep my distance, I should keep my distance from the forum so I don’t offend others.
That’s not what I said.

I didn’t tell you to leave the forum, and nobody is asking you to disappear. I simply said I’m not interested in meeting you personally. I’ve been given the same warning by several people in the community, and I’m going to respect that advice. That is my decision to make.

You’re also turning this into something much more dramatic than it needs to be. This started as a disagreement about brass pedagogy. You suggested meeting in person, I declined. That should be the end of it.

You sound like a very soft/sensitive person.
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by adsteve »

End of the day, people can do whatever they want, I don't care. I also know what I have experienced, what the experts have found, and what the physics of the instrument indicate. If you want to fight physics because -insert dead pedagogue- said so, fine. That is your purgative, and if it works for you, even better.

The problem I have with buzzing is that many people treat it as the focal point and driver of the sound. Physics do no agree. The air stream is the action, the lip vibration is the reaction to the air being put into the resistant tube. Ergo, we should lead with air and let the buzz happen. Too many people try to start with their lips closed, or focus on the buzz, and it leads to overtraining and a complete misuse of effort. And yes, for a trained ear, it is very easy to hear slight bumps at the front of people who rely on buzzing.

Like I said, I don't care. Do what you want.

I also find it hypocritical that literally everyone here acts like an expert because of their experience, then has the audacity to whine about someone else doing the same thing. Don't crap on people for having a strong opinion based on research done by real experts who have boots on the ground dealing with real issues in the arena of pedagogy and musicians health.

Since you all have time to read and write lengthy posts, take the time to watch these.



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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by Nemo »

adsteve wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2026 8:59 am
This video gets passed around a lot but it's not an accurate model of how brass instruments work. The model uses an open tube which by nature has low pressure nodes at both ends like a flute (and sounds like a flute) rather than high at one end and low at the other. The physics in the video check out for a flute, but it's not the physics of a brass instrument as the mouthpiece and leadpipe really play a big role in the way the air behaves.

You can pretty easily demonstrate that there needs to be *some* effort or engagement of the lips for the sound to happen by blowing air through the instrument without the intention of a sound. Or try playing without a mouthpiece right on the leadpipe. No matter how hard you blow, the lips need to be set up correctly for the sound to occur - lip motion is not just a coincidental reaction to the airstream. If it was, woodwinds wouldn't need reeds at all.

Lots of different ideas about how much conscious vs subconscious effort goes into making that lip action happen since players can easily overthink it and lose the musicality or be too tense etc etc. But the lips are active in the production of the sound.

And as a followup, the man in that video (John Harbaugh) advocates for playing on the leadpipe of the trumpet every day to find relaxation and flow. It's a cornerstone of his pedagogy. Basically the same thing as mouthpiece buzzing with a plastic tube, but he doesn't call it that because "buzzing is bad for you."

Edit: also, if we're going to bring physics into the equation, maybe reading what physicists have to say on the matter would be fruitful more than our own perceptions from behind the bell

(You might need to be logged into a university library or similar to access this one)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0X82800862
https://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/ ... 30-55686-0
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by adsteve »

I’m not trying to be an ass, but if buzzing works, do it.

I stopped buzzing and began focusing on leading with the air and letting the lips vibrate as a reaction instead of the action. It works and playing has never been easier. I will trust what Jan has said and done since she has retrained hundreds and had thousands of hours of experience researching and doing this.

Again, if buzzing works and you get something out of it, I’m happy for you. If it leads to issues, I know someone you can contact.

Did you happen to watch the other video I linked? No worries if not.

All the best.
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Nemo (Fri Sep 11, 2026 12:14 pm) • russiantuba (Fri Sep 11, 2026 2:37 pm)
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by bloke »

clarification, at the risk of being overly-redundant:

I outlined three different ways ( [1] buzzing the lips AGAINST each other, [2] the lips vibrating AS THEY DO when connected to the instrument...as if a double reed - never touching and with some sort of instrument-LIKE artificial resistance, and [3] vocalizing/singing - to create pitches WITHOUT using the instrument's overtones as a crutch.

I believe that players (who could use some strengthening of their so-called "ear-training") would benefit from any of these three.
That said, the second way (since is most resembles actual playing) might possibly (??) be the best.

this thread response: fewer words/more clarity




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5P5eQiKNQs
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by AvrTuba »

I'm not smart enough to even speak to buzzing how/if it relates to dystonia.

I used to buzz a lot because that's what my teachers had me do. I didn't take lessons until I started my first year University so I listened to my teacher. Gene Dowling was a Jacobs student and taught in that style. That involved buzzing, so I did it.

Now, I don't feel or see the benefits of buzzing for me, so I don't do it anymore.
Last edited by AvrTuba on Fri Sep 11, 2026 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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russiantuba (Fri Sep 11, 2026 12:37 pm)
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by Mary Ann »

It's interesting that Julie Landsman's (retired 1st horn of the Met) method (Actually Caruso method) does involve buzzing. I think that on the tiny mouthpieces, buzzing is much "closer" to what happens in the cup just because of the size of the cup.

I would doubt that Sarah Willis would recommend buzzing to get the low range she does, because that very low range on horn is played not that differently from tuba, in terms of what the embouchure does (doesn't) do.

I can free buzz whole tunes in the tuba range, and it has zero resemblance to what I do when I play. I don't know what it could possibly have to do with ear training, but I never needed ear training so am probably dumb on that topic.
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bloke (Fri Sep 11, 2026 12:58 pm)
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by bloke »

re: Mary Ann's comments, consider how much MORE - percentage-wise - the length of a trumpet mouthpiece is, compared to the overall length of the instrument. That's a factor as well...(which is one reason I suggest sticking a short piece of tubing onto the shank of a TUBA mouthpiece, if deciding to do this).

ie. Do things to make it more resemble actual PLAYING, as "buzzing" in the air or "buzzing" into a mouthpiece-only does not much resemble actual playing.
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by smitwil1 »

I am sincerely sorry that my resurrection of a dying thread has resulted in so much contention. I genuinely asked the community: what do you think? Can we please discuss what we think in terms of "what we think" rather than facing off as adversaries? Really, we're making buzzy noises into various lengths of tubing. Physics, physiology, and psychology of making music are all real. But, much of what we do and teach are crude analogies to help us either do or teach something that results from the nexus of the three P's. We can hear what comes out, but much of what goes in is obscured either by brass or by brain. There are just too many uncertainties--at least for me--to say that I or anyone else is the end-all-be-all authority on any subject. [Rant on] So, can we discuss rather than proselytize? Can we agree to disagree? Can we remain cordial to each other despite our differences? Can we share our experiences without needing to convince someone else that theirs are somehow "wrong"? I'm not asking anyone to hold hands and sing kumbaya, just saying let's be careful about how we present ourselves or challenge each other and be a bit more open to potential alternatives. [Rant off]
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by bloke »

rant on:
Those who set up the site are already functioning as monitors.
It seems to me there are enough of them.
They haven't taken down any of that jazz. :popcorn:
Give the rest of us a good laugh, at least until the stuff is pulled.
Everybody here watches NASCAR, hockey, football, and even occasionally baseball, for ONE reason.

:slap: :laugh: :popcorn:
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by smitwil1 »

What should have been Part 1 to my last posting...
Thank you to everyone who's shared their experiences and the teachings of others. I was not aware of many of the teachers' takes on buzzing. That has been an eye opener for me and confirms that I'm not the first player/teacher that has used various buzzing methods or abstinence (obstinance?) over time to try to address challenges like centering pitch, smoothing slurs, or improving tone. Question for the group: is anyone willing to share how they've used some kind of buzzing (or not buzzing) to help themselves or a student overcome inefficiency of air use? I'm finding that as I age (60 y/o this month) that the air that I can take in isn't getting me as far as it used to. So, I've tried what I described previously as an attempt to become more air efficient, and have noticed that it may be helping. But, before I go and use it as a potential teaching tool I would like to know if others have similar experience. Thank you moderators and maintainers of this site--I find it a useful resource to a far greater degree than I actually post. And, thank you participants that are willing to give their time to post--absolutely free of charge--and share their knowledge and experience.

bloke--I'm not volunteering to be a moderator, but maybe if someone points out the tension created then others might self-moderate before they spend their time looking for information/entertainment elsewhere. FWIW, I don't watch any of the things you mentioned for the very reason you suspect others do. Maybe it's time for a break. I don't value the conflict unless something good can come out of it.
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by Nemo »

smitwil1 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2026 2:24 pm is anyone willing to share how they've used some kind of buzzing (or not buzzing) to help themselves or a student overcome inefficiency of air use?
When I teach marching band and drum corps, air efficiency is huge because the inexperienced ones are focusing on staying upright while pushing their bodies harder than they have before. We also are pushing for more volume than they're used to.

For air efficiency, I have them do two things.

1) play passages with their valves halfway down so that the instrument has lots of resistance but not slots. This is basically equivalent to a BERP except that you have to be pushing enough air to energize the entire length of the instrument rather than the little plastic tube. This is good for working on your ability to sustain phrases at volume without sipping breaths all the time.

2) inserting something like a paperclip, bobby pin, or a slip of paper into the mouthpiece receiver so that it doesn't seat all the way in and leaks a little air (Scott Sutherland has a video demonstrating this). This way, the instrument will resonate when you give it good air but it doesn't give you the feedback we usually get forcing us into the slots. The benefit of this method is you can use the valves as normal and the instrument will respond if you are being accurate. I usually find that it starts out very airy until the player relaxes and uses an efficient airflow rather than forcing anything. Give it a few tries to settle. This is good for practicing those passages where crossing partials or valve changes makes it hard to have a consistent airflow.

Doing this on long tones, lyrical passages, and especially lip slurs/scales encourages efficiency by encouraging accuracy so that the face isn't fighting the instrument. If you aim to make music with your ideal phrasing in mind you'll start subconsciously developing more efficiency. When you go back to the regular instrument and it is helping you rather than fighting you, it is much easier to sustain long phrases.

I have them play the passage with the handicap and focus on getting as beautiful a tone and musical flow as possible. Do a few reps until it stabilizes and sounds like a proper instrument again, then go back to regular playing. The habits you form when the instrument isn't helping you make your playing much more efficient when it is.
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bloke (Fri Sep 11, 2026 5:52 pm) • gocsick (Fri Sep 11, 2026 8:23 pm) • smitwil1 (Sat Sep 12, 2026 3:14 pm)
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by Mary Ann »

NOT intending to do more than point out something I observe.

The torch in the video IS making a noise; you can hear what sounds like "white noise" in the video when he lights the torch. White noise contains "all" frequencies -- obviously not "all," but a huge huge number of frequencies. What this engineer thinks is happening with the tube and the torch, is that basically one of those frequencies that is present in the white noise hiss of the torch, is a resonant frequency of the tube. The tube then takes up that resonant frequency and amplifies it and we hear a pitch. So -- um, it appears to me that the torch actually IS producing a sound.

I bet that if the pitch the tube is vibrating at were introduced instead of white noise, the result would be interesting to observe.
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by bloke »

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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by tadawson »

Of course, you could always play this:



About a quarter to a third of the brass parts are scored for mouthpiece out buzzing . . . . :facepalm2:
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by Bassboner »

Late to the party again, and I confess, I didn't read all this that people wrote. I can just imagine what folks have to say.

Here's the real scoop. (from a tenor trombone player).

Tuba, and even bass bone, don't use the kind of embouchure that benefits much from buzzing. Buzzing helps you develop strong aperture control and strong corners. These are things you need in the upper register. To the extent that you play "up there", you can benefit from buzzing.

But to benefit, you only need to buzz a couple of minutes at a time. It's easy to tire yourself out and get sloppy. Don't do that. Buzz until you get tired and then move on to something else.

It's also important to note that buzzing, muscle memory and your ear are all related. If you buzz out of tune, you can crack a lot of notes. You have to line up your buzz with actual pitches to hit them on center. Buzz a pitch, put the mouthpiece on lips, keeping the pitch constant, put the horn on the mouthpiece and make sure you're centered on the note. Then reverse the process.

The result for me was strong chops, tons of endurance, and a screaming high range on tenor bone. Actually hurt my bass bone and tuba chops.

Anyway, maybe buzzing gets misrepresented or sold to people who don't need it. It's not useless, but it's also not for everyone.
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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by jtuba »

He likes buzzing

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Re: Uh oh! Another Buzzing Takedown

Post by bloke »

He's very funny.
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