Seriously, why?

[prodigal]

.........I think I might try this with my orchestra students after our early concert. I'll pick a section of something, and go down the line of horns and have them describe the differences in sound.

Let us know what happens!

Will do!

[Mary Ann]

I'll make a teeny tiny comment about CC and BBb. Since I have both the 186 and the Hagen. The 186 is noticeably easier for me to handle in terms of playing it and I think I'd adapt really quickly, if I could just pick the thing up without slipping a disk (It's not the weight per se, but where the weight IS.) The Hagen, I STILL, even after all summer hacking away, if I have even looked at the NStar, I have to almost start over to get it to go, when, before I looked at the NStar, I could pretty much do so. BBb, even a "smaller" one like the Hagen, is just not a CC in terms of how it is played. End teeny tiny comment.

[bloke]

C tubas (after playing them for nearly a half century, I've come to realize) are the "short neck basses" of tubas.

- They are fun to play and alluring, because they are easier.
- Easier comes with a lot of compromises.
- The compromises involved in this analogy are mostly all the same ones.
- The larger a C instrument is built in girth (equivalent to the girth of a sister B-flat instrument), the trickier it becomes to make it something that can be usable.

[catgrowlB]

So I looked up the Eastman website and checked their 'Artists' page. There are a few tuba players I've heard of, and some are pictured with different model tubas. But I do not know who most of those 'Artists' are, and the majority seem to be pictured with the Eastman York 836 model. Eastman seems to weirdly be oriented towards tubas and saxophones, though they certainly make other wind instruments.

I remember back when the Nirschl-York was still new on the scene and I played it. Around that time, the VMI Neptune just came out onto the market, and I played it. I enjoyed them both.
Only a few years later, the YamaYork came out and there was a line of people to play it. For some reason I wasn't even interested in trying it, and instead seeked out other tubas to try.

I think personally if I were interested in a 6/4, 5-valve CC or BBb tuba, I'd probably pick a VMI Neptune or a M-W 2165 with the 45slp mouthpipe. And I have a feeling I'd really enjoy one of those ancient 6/4-ish Conn 'Orchestra Grand' BBb tubas But that's me....

[bloke]

If I played a piano or a guitar with one string that was tuned two or three cents flat, I could probably live with that.

All tubas feature quite a few pitches which are off by much more than that, but there are often ways that we can deal with them (particularly the very best of them) without doing backflips.

When I find a few assorted tuba family instruments which are exceptionally easy to play in tune, those are the ones to which I gravitate. If it happens to be B-flat or rotary (as the tuba culture in my country gravitates to C-length instruments with pistons), okay: fine.

As long as the action on a cheesy 9-ft grand piano it's reliable, I'm going to be more attracted to a cheesy brand than a Steinway, IF the Steinway is all out of tune and the cheesy brand is tuned up nicely. That said, if the Steinway happens to be all set up, in tune nicely and the cheesy brand is out of tune, has a crappy action, and there's no hope for it, it's pretty easy to choose the Steinway.

I've always been more attracted to easily achieved and close to in-tune across the board intonation than any other characteristic offered by any tuba. That said, if a tuba offers much more than that (things that are of secondary, tertiary, quaternary and quinary importance on a list of important things) all the better.

My old bass guitar (that was going to waste under my bed for decades, and is still sort of halfway going to waste under my less than completely competent hands)... I would rate the neck as really close to perfect, and would rate the fretting intonation as crazy good all the way to the top. I've played other bass guitars about which others raved. Those two primary characteristics (the straightness of the neck and the fretting intonation) were often distracting. I don't want to be distracted by an instrument, and I really don't want to be aware of an instrument (other than, perhaps, to the good) while I'm playing it.

I can pick up any of my tubas and play them without moving any slides...
(In fact, I don't move any slides on my f pitched instruments when playing them other than triggering the second slide on the one that has only five valves to correct the math problem involved in playing the valve combination 2-4)
... but with a few subtle adjustments on the fly, any of the instruments that I currently own can easily (in other words without me using crazy valve combinations or lipping the hell out of anything) allow a really competent trombone section's chords to ring like a bell. THIS is when tuba playing becomes REALLY fun. It's not a solo instrument (regardless of what some people - and even myself - do and have done with it), the primary pleasure of playing the tuba is resonance, and the more pure, the more fun it is.

[Nemo]

Eastman seems to weirdly be oriented towards tubas and saxophones, though they certainly make other wind instruments.

I believe this is because they happened to hire designers for tuba and saxophone (Chuck Kerrigan and Alex Hahn - maybe Bob Mintzer) that took it seriously and wanted to make sure the offerings were legit.

Before Chuck came along and started making changes, I had always heard bad things about Eastman tubas design and build quality. Basically they were regarded as the same as other Chinese makers. While Kerrigan was there the instruments got noticably better and started gaining traction because they were much cheaper brand new than other comparable tubas. Same story with the saxophones. I think they leaned into those successful instruments with their artists to try and keep the momentum going. My saxophone professor was an Eastman artist as well, and recommended them publicly and privately.

I guess they just haven't found designers/product leads for their other instruments who have the same effect, so those instruments aren't as prominent.

[bloke]

In my experience, the tuning characteristics of the X36 (versus those of the four-times-the-price X26) is that the price lines up just about right with the veracity of the tuning characteristics.

[JC2]

C tubas (after playing them for nearly a half century, I've come to realize) are the "short neck basses" of tubas.

- They are fun to play and alluring, because they are easier.
- Easier comes with a lot of compromises.
- The compromises involved in this analogy are mostly all the same ones.
- The larger a C instrument is built in girth (equivalent to the girth of a sister B-flat instrument), the trickier it becomes to make it something that can be usable.

This is your opinion, not fact.

[LeMark]

Don't forget Eastman bought shires to show them how to make good trombones

As far as CC vs Bbb. I sold my CC tubas when I played the Eastman 534.

[bloke]

yeah, but not uninformed.
I was a C tuba player for nearly a half a century, owned a ton of different ones over the years (now realizing that I was continuing to look for something that did what the better B flat instruments do), and not only did I extensively play all the models that I own, I've played most of the models that exist, being that I repair them.

Why not circle back to the original inquiry?

- They look good in pictures. (I call it the "Harley-Davidson effect".. it's the same phenomenon related to why guitar stores have full-length mirrors in them...ie. "Imagine what people will think of me when they see me holding this instrument.")
- There has been a sustained CSO York knockoff craze since the early 80s in the United States. Now that there are Chinese knockoffs that cost $1x,xxx (vs. the American, European, and Japanese knockoffs cost $2xxxx - $4xxxx) consumerism in this niche market has gone nuts.
- Again, these are cheap (particularly so in the secondary market)
- Seemingly, the brand overall has been able to establish more cachet than other Chinese brands of CSO York knockoffs, so tons of them have been sold, but apparently (based on the flooded secondary market) they're not sticking.

I've said it before several times:
Of all the knockoffs, the only one that really works well is the Japanese one, and it's more expensive, but really no more expensive than a run of the mill professional (American, which is typically the second choice to German) bassoon. Playing the Japanese CSO knockoff, I'm prompted to play tunes and melodies, rather than (with most of the rest) where I'm sort of prompted to run scales and arpeggios to try to teach myself and remind myself of all the quirks.

[LeMark]

who are you talking to?

[bloke]

who are you talking to?

Thanks. Corrected. I hit the back button and it went to the wrong person's name at the top of a post and I thought I was at the front of the thread.

[dp]

yeah, but not uninformed.
I've said it before several times:

C'mon, no matter what the "it" is, it gets said hundreds of times, in some cases thousands

Did you genuinely want your questions answered (having started the thread), or did you just want to argue?

OP's question was answered two pages ago,

you know everything gets old after a while maybe we don't need to beleaguer the fact...

our bier girls today.png (195.85 KiB) Viewed 8285 times

[bloke]

Something else I've pointed out over and over again on this"no politics" site is that the most political remarks here are those which tend to berate specific makes and models.

By saying that "the only 6/4 C Yorkophone that isn't a total mess is the one that's made in Japan - which also costs way more than the rest" strongly implies (as it is meant to) that most all the rest of them are a mess.

' triggered?
Is telling me to "stop saying that" a form of censorship?

[catgrowlB]

By saying that "the only 6/4 C Yorkophone that isn't a total mess is the one that's made in Japan - which also costs way more than the rest" strongly implies (as it is meant to) that most all the rest of them are a mess.

But how is the YamaYork that much better than the other Yorkaphones, and how are the rest a 'total mess'?
I just ask because I can think of one major orchestra player that actually switched from a YamaYork to the Eastman-York. But when I've heard players on them - even comparing them - I don't hear a huge difference. Usually the Eastman variant or equivalent sounds a little 'darker' than the Yamaha version. That's mostly what I notice as a listener.

I just think everyone's experiences will be different with the same horn. And I think we need to sort out which horns are true Yorkaphones. I'm guessing: the Yorkbrunner, Adams-York, Nirschl-York, YamaYork, Eastman-York, ZO-York, Rusk-cut York, etc

YorkYorkYorkYorkYorrrrrrrrrrrrk!

[bloke]

It's the only one where by the tuning isn't a mess.
The language of western music is intonation, and more so now than ever.

[JC2]

It's the only one where by the tuning isn't a mess.
The language of western music is intonation, and more so now than ever.

I’m in control of intonation and not my instrument. It’s a question of how much do I have to fight the instrument to make that work. Obviously some instruments are going to resist my will quite strongly (old Alexander etc).

The Eastman 836 has very good intonation in my experience and I must have played ten of them by now. Typically they have a very slightly low 5th harmonic and slightly sharp 6th. This is in addition to the usual 5 valve low register tendencies and 12 / 24 combinations being sharp, but these are present on any tuba. All of these issues are solved effortlessly with adjustment of the 1st and 4th slide.

I’ve played every type of York Tuba. The worst intonation would go to the Yorkbrunner, this is one instrument that would be a no deal for dodgy intonation. Good examples of the others are very manageable.

York tubas aren’t everyone’s cup of tea and that’s fine, but the intonation is not really any worse than you find on other large instruments.

[bloke]

I've read the "I'm a He-Man and I can play my tuba in tune, damn it" posts many times.

I can play a guitar with a bowed neck or with frets that weren't the most carefully located, but I choose to not.

As I'VE said many times (as many times as I've seen the He-Man posts about "I control the intonation dammit") - and already in this thread - the most political thing that we could possibly do on this site is to point out the shortcomings of a particular make and model. As seen, it triggers people FAR more than stuff about Republicans and Democrats.

Hey, I'm putting together a B-flat which has had some actual geometric problems which prevented me finishing it quickly - and then I ran into summer repairs. If (after I overcome the sloppy factory issues that currently prevent the valve section from being mounted symmetrically on the rest of the body) it plays like @tubaing's tuba, I just might keep it. If it plays like many others of the same model (pretty good), I'll probably sell it. Someone (either someone else or myself) will be tickled with it.

A tuba that looks the same as another tuba but costs three times as much or even more - yet it's three times as easy to play... just think of all additional pleasure/fun. Playing music doesn't pay worth a crap anymore, so we might as well have as much fun as we can.

[JC2]

.