4/4 Tubas in Professional Symphony Recordings

[tubatodd]

With all of the 6/4 York-o-phones all over the place in symphony orchestras, I'm sure that is what dominates modern recordings. But 6/4 horns weren't always the tuba du jour. I was wondering if any of y'all can provide links to recordings that were made on 4/4 horns that you particularly enjoy.

I always thought that Ron Bishop sounded just awesome on his 4/4 Alex on this recording. Love the 4th movement.



Edit: Updated link to 4th movement!!

[Mary Ann]

Somewhere someone said that Torchinsky played the 184 I used to own, in whatever orchestra it was that he played in. I have no idea if that is true. That might have been Tony Clements who said that, many years ago. I bought that 184 from someone he had sold it to, and he contacted me to say that was a very fine example of a 184. Which it was.

[arpthark]

Pretty much any orchestra recording outside of Chicago pre-1980 would be using a non-Yorkophone, right?

[the elephant]

With all of the 6/4 York-o-phones all over the place in symphony orchestras, I'm sure that is what dominates modern recordings. But 6/4 horns weren't always the tuba du jour. I was wondering if any of y'all can provide links to recordings that were made on 4/4 horns that you particularly enjoy.

I always thought that Rob Bishop sounded just awesome on his 4/4 Alex on this recording. Love the 4th movement.

I was going to recommend that very recording. How cool is that?

[russiantuba]

Gene Pokorny, SLSO Prokofiev 5 is on a HB 2 4/4 CC. Plenty of sound.

Deck—NYPO, Sinopoli Pictures, Bernstein conducting Copland 3 were on a large 4/4 CC

Anything Bobo did was on 186 or smaller

Jim Akins—anything Columbus did in the mid 90s on was on a 4/4 factory made York, Kalison Daryl Smith, or on a Conn 52 J on their Lohengrin recording.

Many Russian/Soviet orchestras used a St. Petersburg (Zimmerman style) tuba

I’d argue the Alexander 163 is more of a 5/4, but Mike Thornton dominated the Cincinnati Symphony recordings on the 163. I believe Ron Bishop was using a Miraphone 184 under one conductor with Cleveland—Mickey Moore told me that about how a big sound could be produced on any horn.

[tubatodd]

Gene Pokorny, SLSO Prokofiev 5 is on a HB 2 4/4 CC. Plenty of sound.

Deck—NYPO, Sinopoli Pictures, Bernstein conducting Copland 3 were on a large 4/4 CC

Anything Bobo did was on 186 or smaller

Jim Akins—anything Columbus did in the mid 90s on was on a 4/4 factory made York, Kalison Daryl Smith, or on a Conn 52 J on their Lohengrin recording.

Many Russian/Soviet orchestras used a St. Petersburg (Zimmerman style) tuba

I’d argue the Alexander 163 is more of a 5/4, but Mike Thornton dominated the Cincinnati Symphony recordings on the 163. I believe Ron Bishop was using a Miraphone 184 under one conductor with Cleveland—Mickey Moore told me that about how a big sound could be produced on any horn.

I need to check all of these out. I'll put links if I find them on the interwebs.

[tubatodd]

I was going to recommend that very recording. How cool is that?

You have some great taste sir! :) I've had this album since I was in high school.



I always thought it was some wonderful playing.

[JCTuba67]

I always stood by the greatest Alexander sound I’ve heard was Dave Kirk in the Houston symphony. Chester Schmitz and I were colleagues and for the longest of time I admired his Alex playing in Boston. I heard a young Dave Kirk in the 80-90s playing a 163 and I still haven’t heard anything like that since. Mike Thornton was documented very well too. I think many have called Dave Kirk Mr. Alexander.

The Alexander is a 4/4 with a large bore. The exact same size as a 186.

[tubatodd]

I always stood by the greatest Alexander sound I’ve heard was Dave Kirk in the Houston symphony. Chester Schmitz and I were colleagues and for the longest of time I admired his Alex playing in Boston. I heard a young Dave Kirk in the 80-90s playing a 163 and I still haven’t heard anything like that since. Mike Thornton was documented very well too. I think many have called Dave Kirk Mr. Alexander.

The Alexander is a 4/4 with a large bore. The exact same size as a 186.

oooooooh I like this. Thank you for sharing.

[tubatodd]

Gene Pokorny, SLSO Prokofiev 5




Deck—NYPO, Sinopoli Pictures - OH MY!!



NYPO Bernstein Copland Symphony 3

[catgrowlB]

Deck—NYPO, Sinopoli Pictures, Bernstein conducting Copland 3 were on a large 4/4 CC

I’d argue the Alexander 163 is more of a 5/4

There are pics & video of the Deck/Geib/Conn rotary CC online. Deck played that tuba in the NY Phil thru most of the 1980s. I seem to also remember that tuba is in someone's collection (along with many other tubas), and Chris Olka played on them and had pics taken.

That tuba sure looks 5/4 to me in every way -- large bore rotary valveset, 5/4 body, and a rather large wide-flared bell.

Looks noticeably larger than any Alex 163, which is a full 4/4 with a large bore rotary valveset.

Bill Bell, Joe Novotny, Abe Torchinsky all at one time played 4/4 King rotary CC tubas.

I'd like to hear about players and what they played in some other orchestras. What did Wes Jacobs use while in Detroit Symphony?

Ross Tolbert (Minneapolis Symphony), James Jenkins (Jacksonville Symphony), and Ev Gilmore (Dallas Symphony) all apparently played BBb tubas. What did they play on?

Maybe this could be 4/4 and 5/4 tubas used before 6/4 York-a-phones became common.

[joshwirt]

Roger Bobo on a 186:

https://youtu.be/qJhm1P5G3SM?si=q17J3nphOBg20BJu

Roger Bobo on a 186 and Tommy Johnson on a 185 (I think?):

https://youtu.be/shoMa8lxtU0?si=5uimcWaPws6AT4jt

Norm Pearson on a 188:

https://youtu.be/2rLjqOzq-L0?si=VlWJEEcberI5vSLg

[jtuba]

Ross Tolbert (Minneapolis Symphony), James Jenkins (Jacksonville Symphony), and Ev Gilmore (Dallas Symphony) all apparently played BBb tubas. What did they play on?

Wasn't Ross Tolbert endorsing St Pete BBb tubas for a bit? Not sure what he played

Somewhar confident Ev Gilmore played a Cerveny 601.

James Jenkins had his Boehm and Meinl BBb tuba stolen, don't know what he replaced it with

[MikeS]

I'd like to hear about players and what they played in some other orchestras. What did Wes Jacobs use while in Detroit Symphony?

I recall seeing Wes using a Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC and a Yamaha 321 Eflat.

[russiantuba]

Alan Baer has been using his Miraphone 188CC with the NYPO, not for everything, but he has been using it while teaching as well.

I believe Chester Schmitz used an Alexander 163 CC with Boston for a while.

Rich Watson used a Schilke 4/4 CC and an Alex 163 with Honolulu, I have a couple recordings of those.

I believe Jay Hunsberger used a HB 21 with Sarasota for part of the time

Mike Sanders also used an Alexander 163CC with St Louis for several years and he went to an HB 50 later. Mike could play anything though—I don’t think people realize how good he was at tuba.

[bort2.0]

I bet I have some decent amateur recordings somewhere, from when I had my gem of a 188.

I'd love to have another Miraphone 188 some day. For orchestra, it was just about the best tuba I've ever used. Until the Rudy 5/4 BBb, but hey, let's not get off topic here.

Side note: first concert of the season is Mozart Requiem. No tuba.

[tofu]

Roger Bobo on a 186:

https://youtu.be/qJhm1P5G3SM?si=q17J3nphOBg20BJu

Roger Bobo on a 186 and Tommy Johnson on a 185 (I think?):

https://youtu.be/shoMa8lxtU0?si=5uimcWaPws6AT4jt

Norm Pearson on a 188:

https://youtu.be/2rLjqOzq-L0?si=VlWJEEcberI5vSLg

My understanding is that for the Planets it was Bobo on his 184 and TJ on his 185.

[arpthark]

There are pics & video of the Deck/Geib/Conn rotary CC online. Deck played that tuba in the NY Phil thru most of the 1980s. I seem to also remember that tuba is in someone's collection (along with many other tubas), and Chris Olka played on them and had pics taken.

That tuba sure looks 5/4 to me in every way -- large bore rotary valveset, 5/4 body, and a rather large wide-flared bell.

Looks noticeably larger than any Alex 163, which is a full 4/4 with a large bore rotary valveset.

Not to sidetrack this thread (ha! big ask for TubaForum), but you had me looking this up because I thought that Conn only made one model of rotary CC. I played one in a private collection that was very much a medium-sized 4/4 instrument, likely from the 1920s-30s(?) and probably made for Gus Helleberg back in the day. Here is me with that instrument. The angle is skewed but to me it felt about the same size as a Miraphone 291. maybe a bit smaller:



However, your comment made me look up the Conn/Geib rotary CC and it's a way different instrument:



I think I played it when I was last visiting Mike but it's kind of a blur now... shoulda paid a little more attention. Too many tubas for one visit!

There's also a Conn/Geib CC on horn-u-copia that looks even larger:

[tubamuphone]

[/quote]

Somewhar confident Ev Gilmore played a Cerveny 601.

[/quote]

In addition to his 601, Ev also had an Alexander 163 BBb tuba and a Miraphone 185 BBb tuba that he used in the Dallas Symphony Orchestra back in the day. I didn't get a chance to play the Cerveny or the Alex (I heard great things about both). The Miraphone 185 was hands down the best BBb tuba I ever played, unmatched response, it felt like an F tuba.

JB

[bloke]

Six quarter (particularly the wide-belled) tubas really are too big to only feature 16' long bugles without sacrificing some resonance. The 16' bugle ones are mostly all knock-offs of one goofball tuba made nearly a century ago. That tuba's original owner apparently didn't care for it, and sold it to a student - allowing them to make payments over quite a few months, reportedly.

A few days after I got my 32 inch tall 19 inch bell 11/16" bore Holton B-flat going, I used it to play Concerto for Orchestra.

Mrs bloke was in the mezzanine and punched the record button on my crappy Apple 5 phone every time she saw me pick up my tuba. That hodgepodge of excerpts is on YouTube. The tuba is very audible. That tuba is basically a York 33 size body and bell, it's actually not as big as those Eastman factory-cut-down-new-style-King C tubas (though superior to them ).

I keep referring back (surely everyone is tired of reading about it) to when I used my F tuba to play the Organ Symphony (and that performance was recorded. It's on YouTube). Lots of tuba in the video in the last movement. Every time I played that piece over the years, I've used the F.

A subtle amount of so-called "edge" in the sound makes it easier to hear a brass instrument. That said, even with a 4/4:size tuba body, if we're not being ridiculous we're not going to produce very much "edge", but upper overtones will likely be emphasized a bit more, which is sort of what "edge" is.

It requires expending more energy (unnecessarily?) on the part of the player to create as much audibility with a oversize tuba compared to with a normal sized tuba.

Maybe (??) more players on the North American continent might consider working on efficiently energizing normal-size 18 ft long bugles rather than oversized 16 ft long bugles. (??) ...or - if oversized - consider combining oversized with 18 feet of expansion.