25% tariff increase on brass instruments

[cthuba]

Being offended by a man that makes sweeping generalizations that cut down not only myself but my friends and my coworkers who’ve gone through similar things that I have without acknowledging what we DONT HAVE today isn’t personal.

It’s a fact.

I’m sorry that that happened to your son and I hope that you will someday live in a country where you wouldn’t have to worry about that and it actually lives up to some semblance of a “dream”

[bloke]

I edited my comment before you typed the one just above.
Basically what I added was that I don't give a damn about the Iran jazz, I think it's ridiculous, but you should also know that I don't give a damn about any other countries on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean either. My ancestors moved over here because it sucked over there. It still sucks over there. Since I have grandchildren now, it concerns me that it's sucking over here - more and more- the same way that it sucks over there.

People are particularly sensitive to other people's comments when they are aware that the other person whose opinions they are viewing are offered forth by someone who doesn't vote for the same people that they themselves vote for (as you finally revealed), but a bigger problem is that people make too many stereotypical assumptions about others' sociopolitical views.

My hero is that old tiny little man with the squeaky voice from Texas who ran for president two or three times and -as a US legislator - never introduced any legislation (because we already have too damn much legislation). When that person never won any primaries, I wrote in for them. Today, I would put his son in the oval office a trillion to one over the person who is in there now. That said, I voted for the one in there - with no particular compass - because I wasn't offered a good choice. (I wasn't going to vote for him, but right when I was walking up to the little machine, my wife reminded him of what he had said in black churches: "what the hell do you have to lose?") I was offered this person (a wild card) as opposed to people who rigidly an absolutely wrongly view north as south and south as north. That's voting for hopelessness. Instead, I voted for 1 to 100 odds, as opposed to 0 to 100 odds. Just a circle back and reemphasize something, I'm deeply disappointed that that 70-year-old legislator who suddenly died recently hadn't got a hold of this populist president's mind and put the crazy idea into his head to go attack a country and attempt to take it over (after he had already done a possibly arguably sensible thing - possibly?? - by neutralizing nuclear enrichment sites... If doing that, that should have absolutely been the end of it. Again I blame that deceased senator - talking this directionless president into thinking he could do what he's trying to do - for all of this nonsense).

yeah... this "kook" and his kook son - I just want government to leave us all the hell alone

[url]https://fedsoc.org/cdn-cgi/image/fit=sc ... nMOH3.jpeg[/ur]

bloke is political - bloke is political. !!!
Who isn't? But notice that I support people who prefer way LESS of everything - rather than more of anything.
I'm responding to your "neocon" comment (ie. You opened the door), which - again - I suspect you view me as being such (nope), which is why you decided to personalize my comments, and thus made the decision to be offended by them.

[dp]

If some bright spark wanted to make a fortune, they'd import components from JinBao (or a bunch of other Asian factories; they're happy to sell 'em to you!), and assemble them here.

now ain't that just ironic AF (and yes I still believe you were ALL stupid and crazy AF to spend a couple decades beefing up the chinesium manufacturing machine and ARE completely out of touch with reality to be complaining about this now. (and to think, chinesium isnt even one of the materials on that "list")

[dp]

The US has very little brass (the metal) foundry capacity anymore. 2 years ago one of the largest brass producers in the US, Lee Brass in Alabama, closed it doors. It was a family business founded in 1917 but was sold to private equity Fidelis Holdings LLC (THeir motto??? "Integrity, Methods, Results"). The new owners closed the foundry overnight, stiffed many employees on their last paycheck, and sent all production to china. The kicker guess who was one of the largest customer, US Department of Defense... specifically the Navy surface and Sub fleets. The owners told the DoD that they didn't care about military production they could make more profit by closing US operations.
How do I know the details???... my friend bought 75% of their assets for pennies on the dollar at auction. He was the only one at the auction bidding above scrap value for the equipment. Everyone else came in with the current scrap value of copper and steel and based their bids based on the weight of each piece of equipment. He is currently setting up a new foundry on President's Island outside of Memphis with significant investment from the US Navy. I have been helping him as a consultant and was down there for the first 2,000 lb bronze melt. Here is some information https://www.icmrl.net/smart-manufacutring-tn-oh... Even this is not going to be enough to meet US Navy needs...
There are a lot of problems with the brass/broze/copper industry int he US. West Philadelphia Bronze is a major supplier of valves for the Navy. Currently they are unable to make parts that they have been producing for over 100 years without difficulty. Suddenly their recipes don't work.. Why??? because their process relied on deeply held institutional knowledge passed from foreman down to apprentice... and that knowledge has been lost by attrition from an aging workforce and not brining in new people years ago when it was necessary. Now you only have 60 year olds and 20 year olds in the place. Currently for one particular valve needed by the Navy they have over a 50% initial scrap rate... of the remaining half 80% need manual grinding and weld rework. 20 years ago the scrap rate was less than 10%. It is bad enough that I was at a meeting with some of the Navy's top scientists and the Admiral in charge of a specific nuclear sub program of record to figure out a way to get scrapped valves repaired for short term use and into the hands of Newport News Shipyards because a sub was delayed going back into service by over 6 month.
In 2022 the Department of Defense reported that Domestic supply of Metal Castings and Forgings are one of the top 4 National Security Vulnerabilities in the US. AHEAD of the Military need for microelectronics and batteries.. Second to Hypersonic Weapons.
This is the backdrop for all of this.... Whether a tariff on Brass Instruments is going to help or hurt the situation.. dunno. I am personally opposed to it because it is such a small drop in the bucket compared to the actual root causes.. To put it into perspective Brass Instruments represent roughly 0.05% to 0.1% (or about 1 in every 1,000 to 2,000 tons)—of the total copper, brass, and bronze products produced or imported into the US each year. Consumer goods as a whole is only 10%.. the rest is construction, industrial equipment, medical, etc. So much more bang for the buck than instruments and parts.

Thank-you this is much more helpful than the fear and loathing b.s. daisy chain prompted by the OP.

[cthuba]

[flash=][/flash]@bloke

I could care less of you voted for him a third time. My father and you have the same mindset and will always be a hard lined right winger.

EXCEPT

He looks at the economy today and understands that my generation isn’t being dealt a great hand instead of assuming

“They’re all just lazy, don’t want to get dirty and want to be paid CEO salaries for nothing.”

He was a steel worker, worked for a dictaphone corporation, did bodywork and ran cable extruders and he has the understanding to look back and say:

“I could buy a house and support a family with ONE of those jobs”

Today he works 10+hrs of overtime doing bodywork at 70 because HE can’t afford the cost of living. On top of the pension that he receives from a company that no longer gives that benefit and pays half the wage it did when he worked there.

And for that part I respect my dad who still says he would vote for him a third time.

My neocon comment was a reference to where our money is going right now and not who’s name you click on at the booth. Wasn’t it the Nixon administration who decided to have the USD made into a fiat currency and then have its value backed by oil?

You made that comment personal. Even I understand that in the last 40 years it didn’t matter whether we put a jackass in there or an Elephant because the US foreign policy of interfering in other countries was the same. Clinton, Bush, Obama, Biden and Trump ALL in some capacity made their presence known by bombing Syria.

[UncleBeer]

So, no, the loophole isn’t simply “import the JinBao in pieces and assemble it here.” The actual government document pretty clearly anticipated parts as well as complete instruments.

"Parts" and components are two different things. A tuning slide is a part. A crook and four slide legs are components, until someone assembles them into a part.

...bolt them together in the U.S...

Assuming you're joking with this.

That’s mostly semantics

Words mean things. Just like your assertion that components would be "bolted together" in the US.

[hrender]

It’s good we’re able to discuss this reasonably.

[bloke]

Just as a reminder, the topic is a proposed tariff on finished metal products, the claimed purpose being to encourage reopening foundries domestically or building new foundries domestically, as we consume a lot of metal products and our defense materiel requires a lot of metal.

I'm through being pulled off on the tangent as if they're the main topic, because of some parenthetical observation I made within a comment on the main topic.

Everyone here is a he-man, okay?

The social media meme about Chinese trumpets and Trump is stupid.

[Schlitzz]

He-Man took tap, piano, and viola lessons as a child. Prove me wrong.

[hrender]

Honestly mystified how a 25% import tax on "brass-wind musical instruments and their parts and accessories" is expected to produce sufficient revenue or induce sufficient financial pain so as to lead to the creation of new defense-oriented mines and foundries.

[bloke]

Honestly mystified how a 25% import tax on "brass-wind musical instruments and their parts and accessories" is expected to produce sufficient revenue or induce sufficient financial pain so as to lead to the creation of new defense-oriented mines and foundries.

How does thousands and millions of government spending on this, that, and the other result in $40 trillion dollars of debt?

Everything adds up. (This is not a direct analogy, but it is still an analogy.)

If a Japanese company is going to have beginner trumpets made in China for a hundred bucks and those same trumpets are retailing here for 1500 bucks, maybe (too late now) we could have helped our last factory stay open with tariffs. I'd wager that that last American factory could have managed to make beginner trumpets for $650 bucks and retail them for $1,300 bucks.

That said, it's only a proposal, and I personally don't think it will work, so I can't explain it to you - myself also being a skeptic... But that doesn't mean that I'm going to vote for the same people you vote for, and nor does it mean that I'm going to be for or against every initiative just because someone pushed an initiative for whom I did or did not vote.

Biden supporters never jumped on here and griped about Biden initiatives (regardless of how well or ill advised), and Trump supporters are probably not going to jump on here and gripe about Trump initiatives (regardless of how well or ill advised).

...the point being that this thread topic is as transparent as hell. It's not about giving a crap about putting a tariff on Chinese trumpets at all. Everyone knows it's an excuse to gripe about Trump. PRETENDING to gripe about a proposed tariff on Chinese trumpets.

You know what I've noticed?
People who gripe about Trump gripe about all the little petty things that don't make a damn bit of difference (such as this), and virtually none of them gripe about this big ass Iran crap that's going on. (Why concentrate on the petty things like gold-plated statues and pools and such and not bring up the big ass things?)

...but let me just repeat that everyone here is a He-Man.

[bisontuba]

[bloke]

It's fascinating how plainly stated truth causes people to raise their eyebrows (as well as for some to become personally offended), isn't it?

[JCTuba67]

"Parts" and components are two different things. A tuning slide is a part. A crook and four slide legs are components, until someone assembles them into a part.



Assuming you're joking with this.

That’s mostly semantics

Words mean things. Just like your assertion that components would be "bolted together" in the US.

“Words mean things” is not an argument, especially when you’re deliberately ignoring context. You knew perfectly well that “bolted together” meant importing an instrument in pieces and performing minimal assembly here. Pretending I literally meant workers would put a tuba together with bolts is childish.

More importantly, you still haven’t addressed the actual point: calling something a “component” instead of a “part” does not automatically create a tariff exemption. Customs looks at the merchandise as imported, the applicable classifications, and rules covering incomplete or unassembled goods. Your personal shop-language distinction does not override customs law.

So far, you’ve corrected a figure of speech, posted a facepalm emoji, and repeated “words mean things.” Congratulations. Now try explaining exactly which tariff provision makes these imported components exempt. Until you can do that, you haven’t refuted anything. You’ve just abandoned the argument and started grading vocabulary.

[cthuba]

It's fascinating how plainly stated truth causes people to raise their eyebrows (as well as for some to become personally offended), isn't it?

The United States isn't a particular attractive place these days as a source of labor. Very few people are interested in doing anything that gets them sweaty, dirty, or sore, and most people are attracted to things that involve staring at screens and just using their fingers in gentle ways.

Translation: Most if not all Gen X, Millenial and especially Zoomer generations are completely uninterested in doing hard labor and have zero work ethic and because of this… poor corporations have to outsource their labor for cheap.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LABOR BEING DEVALUED IN THE PAST 50+ YEARS.

Only that people are lazy.

CERTAINLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CLINTON SIGNING THE NAFTA AGREEMENT AND THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION NOT WALKING IT BACK MAKING IT EASIER TO SHIP JOBS OVERSEAS.

Only that Millennials and Gen Xer’s want to get paid to scroll their phones.

IT ALSO HAS NOTHING TO WITH INDUSTRIAL ARTS BEING CUT FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

I concede you’re right. It’s all our fault that there aren’t any jobs here anymore. Because most of us are terrible workers with an only a VERY few that still work hard.

Call me He-Man all you want but I know for a fact you wouldn’t say that to anyone in a warehouse that I work, nor my friends that work on railroad cars.

[hrender]

Some good data here: https://dataintelo.com/report/global-br ... ind-market