25% tariff increase on brass instruments

[the elephant]

The tariffs are on the metals. These are products made from these metals. That would include tubas and tuba parts. In Hank Hill's voice: They don't give a rat's ass about tubas or tuba accessories.

[UncleBeer]

So, no, the loophole isn’t simply “import the JinBao in pieces and assemble it here.” The actual government document pretty clearly anticipated parts as well as complete instruments.

"Parts" and components are two different things. A tuning slide is a part. A crook and four slide legs are components, until someone assembles them into a part.

...bolt them together in the U.S...

Assuming you're joking with this.

[hrender]

The tariffs are on the metals. These are products made from these metals. That would include tubas and tuba parts. In Hank Hill's voice: They don't give a rat's ass about tubas or tuba accessories.

It sounds like the regs specifically call out brass instruments.

As far as metals production in the US, although we're not globally dominant, it appears that we've been relatively stable for some time.

Relevant graphs:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

https://alfred.stlouisfed.org/series?se ... ign=alfred (Edit: click on Max to get the 50+ year view)

[Schlitzz]

Should be a THREE HUNDRED SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT tariff on the violas.

[hrender]

Another article. Covers the relevant points: https://www.kcci.com/article/tariff-bra ... a/73408784

Key bit, possibly off-topic:

Commerce's notice says steel, aluminum and copper, along with certain products derived from them, are essential to producing U.S. weapons and protecting the country's defense industrial base.

This goes along with the 50% proposed increase in defense spending.

[gocsick]

The US has very little brass (the metal) foundry capacity anymore. 2 years ago one of the largest brass producers in the US, Lee Brass in Alabama, closed it doors. It was a family business founded in 1917 but was sold to private equity Fidelis Holdings LLC (THeir motto??? "Integrity, Methods, Results"). The new owners closed the foundry overnight, stiffed many employees on their last paycheck, and sent all production to china. The kicker guess who was one of the largest customer, US Department of Defense... specifically the Navy surface and Sub fleets. The owners told the DoD that they didn't care about military production they could make more profit by closing US operations.

How do I know the details???... my friend bought 75% of their assets for pennies on the dollar at auction. He was the only one at the auction bidding above scrap value for the equipment. Everyone else came in with the current scrap value of copper and steel and based their bids based on the weight of each piece of equipment. He is currently setting up a new foundry on President's Island outside of Memphis with significant investment from the US Navy. I have been helping him as a consultant and was down there for the first 2,000 lb bronze melt. Here is some information https://www.icmrl.net/smart-manufacutring-tn-oh... Even this is not going to be enough to meet US Navy needs...

There are a lot of problems with the brass/broze/copper industry int he US. West Philadelphia Bronze is a major supplier of valves for the Navy. Currently they are unable to make parts that they have been producing for over 100 years without difficulty. Suddenly their recipes don't work.. Why??? because their process relied on deeply held institutional knowledge passed from foreman down to apprentice... and that knowledge has been lost by attrition from an aging workforce and not brining in new people years ago when it was necessary. Now you only have 60 year olds and 20 year olds in the place. Currently for one particular valve needed by the Navy they have over a 50% initial scrap rate... of the remaining half 80% need manual grinding and weld rework. 20 years ago the scrap rate was less than 10%. It is bad enough that I was at a meeting with some of the Navy's top scientists and the Admiral in charge of a specific nuclear sub program of record to figure out a way to get scrapped valves repaired for short term use and into the hands of Newport News Shipyards because a sub was delayed going back into service by over 6 month.

In 2022 the Department of Defense reported that Domestic supply of Metal Castings and Forgings are one of the top 4 National Security Vulnerabilities in the US. AHEAD of the Military need for microelectronics and batteries.. Second to Hypersonic Weapons.

This is the backdrop for all of this.... Whether a tariff on Brass Instruments is going to help or hurt the situation.. dunno. I am personally opposed to it because it is such a small drop in the bucket compared to the actual root causes.. To put it into perspective Brass Instruments represent roughly 0.05% to 0.1% (or about 1 in every 1,000 to 2,000 tons)—of the total copper, brass, and bronze products produced or imported into the US each year. Consumer goods as a whole is only 10%.. the rest is construction, industrial equipment, medical, etc. So much more bang for the buck than instruments and parts.

[hrender]

Having been an employee of three different firms that moved their production overseas b/c of cheaper labor and materials, I don't think the tariffs are going to fix the problem. They'll just become part of the cost of doing business.

[Mary Ann]

Just as I gladly have paid more for Miraphones because they are GOOD TUBAS, I would gladly pay more for anything ACTUALLY GOOD made in the USA. The problem is, with the "Walmartization of America" which trained people to buy crap that falls apart, throw it away, and buy more of same. And we are where we are. The people voted. Just like they have voted to ruin their health with processed, nutritionally deficient "food," and voted to support "health care" that is designed to keep them on drugs for symptoms for the rest of their lives, instead of actually curing the cause.
Oh but I digress again, don't I?

[bloke]

What is funny about the stupid meme on Facebook is that people who play brass instruments think that other people give a crap whether their instruments from Asia (that they may or may not ever buy) cost another 25% or not, and the even funnier thing about it is that they are so presumptuous as to immediately view the (proposed) tariff on imported finished metal goods as being all about them.

As far as attempting to coerce other countries to make their goods in our country and use our labor (and probably/maybe even use our raw materials), the natural thing is for people to seek out the cheapest prices for the best stuff. That's called free enterprise (not "capitalism"... Everyone uses the word "capitalism" and it makes me cringe, because no one knows the classical definition of it as it was coined by a communist author named Louis Blanc.)
Has every country that becomes the next manufacturing center has its standard of living increased and the costs of manufacturing in those countries rise as well, manufacturing will continue to migrate to the next and the next and the next third world country. Eventually, most manufacturing will probably occur in Africa. The United States isn't a particular attractive place these days as a source of labor. Very few people are interested in doing anything that gets them sweaty, dirty, or sore, and most people are attracted to things that involve staring at screens and just using their fingers in gentle ways. Trade schools are beginning to attract more attention, but not nearly enough, but the other problem is that Americans who have just a little bit of ability think that they deserve three figure an hour salaries. I have to do my own welding because well there's no longer do any $20 jobs... Everything is a $200 and up job, and perhaps that's how the market has become, as so few people possess those skills, anymore.

All of that having been said, our entire federal government - prior to Wilson and all of the "things" that he instigated - was funded by tariffs. Now, though, as the majority of the things that the federal government does are extra-constitutional or unconstitutional (in addition to most presidents deciding to recklessly involve our formerly-a-republic in foreign wars, as did Wilson - who sort of started up the tradition), that will never again be possible.

It's nice to hope that some president wearing a cape could bring this former-Republic out of decline, but it's just not going to happen. Our taxation system punishes achievement (severely), which (along with - via epic societal decay, just as with past declining nations - fear of my wife and myself being shot by someone who needs a $20 for some sort of addictive substance) is why we sold our brick and mortar and house over two decades ago, moved out to the country, and - though we still work pretty hard - no longer make (adjusted for inflation) $300,000 bucks or more a year as we did before, and mostly just make enough to get along while doing our best (avoiding confiscatory tax thresholds) to avoid feeding the beast.

[bisontuba]

[bloke]

I have owned a bunch of tubas over the years and sold a bunch of them. After my thirties, I quit buying tubas that sucked, so everything I've owned since then was pretty much remarkably good too extraordinarily good. Any of the lower end of this were bought knowing that I would eventually flip them - after screwing around with them and having a little bit of fun with them.

I'm having trouble remembering any tubas that I bought in the last 35 years that I bought new. I don't believe any. And I've made several (via restoring and enhancing simple design tubas with a lot of potential) as well, and I seem to get luckier and luckier with those endeavors as well.

psst: top secret strategy for Frankentubists
If you find some old B flat three valve top action thing that plays like a dream that you think you'd like to straighten out and flip to five valve front action, don't F it up by cutting it to C.

[JCTuba67]

So, no, the loophole isn’t simply “import the JinBao in pieces and assemble it here.” The actual government document pretty clearly anticipated parts as well as complete instruments.

"Parts" and components are two different things. A tuning slide is a part. A crook and four slide legs are components, until someone assembles them into a part.

...bolt them together in the U.S...

Assuming you're joking with this.

That’s mostly semantics, not how customs law works. You can call the crook and slide legs “components” in the workshop, but components can still legally be parts of a musical instrument. Those terms aren’t mutually exclusive.

Customs looks at what the items are, what they’re made for, how they’re imported, and whether they already have the essential character of the finished part. An unassembled tuning slide doesn’t magically stop being a tuning slide just because nobody has soldered the legs to the crook yet.

So no, this “parts versus components” distinction isn’t some automatic tariff loophole. It’s wordplay being presented as a legal fact.

[bloke]

Surely contributions to senators and congressmen can affect how the head of the CBP reviews specific products imported by specific people...??

I wouldn't think it would take that much money to buy access.

[cthuba]

. The United States isn't a particular attractive place these days as a source of labor. Very few people are interested in doing anything that gets them sweaty, dirty, or sore, and most people are attracted to things that involve staring at screens and just using their fingers in gentle ways. Trade schools are beginning to attract more attention, but not nearly enough, but the other problem is that Americans who have just a little bit of ability think that they deserve three figure an hour salaries. I have to do my own welding because well there's no longer do any $20 jobs... Everything is a $200 and up job, and perhaps that's how the market has become, as so few people possess those skills, anymore.

I’m sorry. With all due respect. F*ck you.

For the past 10+ years I have worked alongside other people of my generation and younger as an order selector moving 35,000lbs-40,000lbs a day of product by hand, running north of 4 miles a day in -40 degrees to 110 in a grocery store distribution center. 10,000-13,000 cases a week moved by hand each weighing between 1oz and 90 damn lbs. Did I mention they have to be stacked on top of one another on a pallet?



On production mind you, so I have to move FAST. There’s maybe one guy in his 60’s still doing it, but they are rare because frankly they can’t keep up.

I could eat a damn Big Mac meal everyday and not gain a lb because my work literally dictates that I consume a minimum of 4000 calories a day.

You’re acting like nobody wants to work anymore while completely overlooking the fact that whatever time frame of America you are comparing to today excludes the fact that Unions and the Labor forces had MUCH more leverage in bargaining for wages. Why else do you think workplace benefits have deteriorated in the past 30 years?!

I remember my father running copper extruders for power lines at a cable company for 50-60hr a week when he had A DAMN PENSION. Something the zoomer generation knows nothing about. That same job that once paid $40/hr now pays $25 because the company made good in finding ways to fire or incentivize every employee that made that $40 wage to walk out.

The pay ratio between a CEO and my father in 1995 was 121-1 compared to now where it is 280-1 and you here spouting off that the problem is:


“pEoPlE JuSt DoNt WaNt To WoRk.”

What an out of touch delusional take. My father worked less to have what I have and I:

-torn my hamstring
-developed arthritis in my feet at the age of 26
-thrown my back out three different times
-regularly sleep with hand braces at night to ease the pain of waking up at 3am because my wrists hurt.

All within 10 years

How dare you.

Lord I have never read a comment that pissed me off more than that.

[bloke]

Don't have a heart attack on my account.
I'm not changing your mind, and you're not changing mine.

...but that "fu¢k you" thing REALLY DID hurt my feelings...
...right here...right under my pack of cigarettes.



see?
I offered a nice civil response.
...and I even read a couple of lines of what you typed.

...

[cthuba]

I’m not the one making sweeping generalizations about the American workforce as a person who owns their own business.

Pathetic.

[bloke]

[bloke]

- You're not angering me.
- I'm not impressed with a large percentage young Americans, particularly not those who are living with their mamas, while telling me that life is unfair, and that it's my fault.
- Millions of them show remarkable promise but more millions do not seem to show very much.
- Most people in "the trades"', today in America, are well over 50 years old. They're not being replaced.
- Too many people (and - in particular too many young men) in America are looking for jobs/professions which involve sitting in chairs and staying nice and clean all day. With such a high percentage seeking jobs that manage or keep track of things, who's going to do the things?

...and then, there are these...
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1EZFHDYHHW/

[cthuba]

- You're not angering me.
- I'm not impressed with a large percentage young Americans, particularly not those who are living with their mamas, while telling me that life is unfair, and that it's my fault.
- Millions of them show remarkable promise but more millions do not seem to show very much.
- Most people in "the trades"', today in America, are well over 50 years old. They're not being replaced.
- Too many people (and - in particular too many young men) in America are looking for jobs/professions which involve sitting in chairs and staying nice and clean all day. With such a high percentage seeking jobs that manage or keep track of things, who's going to do the things?

...and then, there are these...
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1EZFHDYHHW/

I could care less if you feel anything over my post.

I’ll bite though.

2014-2019 I lived with my mom. Paying 700/a month while told that if I moved out I would not only fail, but that it was selfish of me to give a landlord money instead of them. It wasn’t until I met a wonderful woman that convinced me it wasn’t selfish to live my life that I found the strength to leave my parents.

Who were also using a LARGE portion of my money to gamble. So I’m sorry you weren’t impressed with me during that time.

When I went to school there were things called Metal Shop, Wood Shop and Vocational Technical education where you could learn to be a mechanic.

Now?

Doesn’t exist today in that school, nor the satellite districts that gave those classes. So to answer your question gee I don’t know maybe invest in those programs instead of some Neo-cons wet dream to dominate the Persian Gulf.

[bloke]

Mostly - to each other - we are ones and zeros.

You're personalizing my views, and my views don't personally include you at all.

When people get all worked up over the president saying that people no longer are to feel compelled to have their infant children jabbed with MMR (three harsh vaccines) all at once, and (about 99% because they just don't like the president) they mock people like me who know that can injure a baby (as I have a 37-year-old son who was injured with seizures shortly after MMR, he DOES live with his mama - because he's not capable of holding down a job, managing money, or controlling his emotions, and - once we're dead - who knows what's going to become of him) I have to avoid personalizing those people's uninformed opinions.
They're too ignorant to know that there are injured people out there whose lives were devastated by MMR injections during infancy.
They are uninformed, because this didn't happen to them, and because they're confused and view "public" health and THEIR health has the same things, and of course those two things are not the same things.

I didn't post about you. I posted about a societal problem... 25-year-old grown ass man who would call AAA to change their flat tire.
You're not part of the problem, but you can choose to be offended. I have absolutely no control over that which offends you.
... so you're eager easily angered by me insensitive to my comments in particular because we don't vote for the same people... It finally comes out. I wonder how surprised you might be to read that I think the Iran jazz is really stupid... but I think you ought to know that I don't give a damn about any other countries on the other side of the Atlantic either. My ancestors moved here because it sucked over there (and never really has not sucked). Now, it's starting to suck over here pretty bad.