Pointless but interesting observation - note (high Eb) missing on BBb-tuba

[Thomas]

Just a useless observation, even for a tuba forum. Take it as a summer holiday thread...

I stumbled over this some years ago on my Besson BBb while exploring the tonal range limits of me and the instrument. There is (almost) no high Eb (Eb4, or es¹ in german terms - 1st valve). On the Besson it is/was there in maybe less than 10% of the attempts. I almost tried this as a challenge for me as I got curious about this when I noted it. Interestingly I can get it a bit easier and not properly in tune (slightly high) using 3rd valve...surrounding halftones D and E are there, no issues or even better than on the other instruments.

On my then Alex 164 and also on my current no name nickel plated Kaisertuba the note is absolutely there, playable and sounding clear which for me means not usable in music but when getting there playing scales. Especially on the Alex this octave was very easy to reach.

I could play and test a lot of other nice and high quality BBb-tubas since then, and it's always this note which is there or not (then sometimes but not always better to get on 3rd valve). That's why I think this is depending more on the tuba than on the player.

Now fully restored my Besson changed a bit, I think it is now better on 1st than on 3rd valve. Still needs a lot of concentration. The only major change despite removing the typical large Besson dent (most of them seem to be heavily dented just around the connection of the main bottom bow and the smaller side of the main bugle) is the now floating leadpipe.

I know it's pointless, but found it interesting as several particular instruments seem to have all other tones over almost 3,5 octaves except for the high Eb.

I should add that both Kaisers had/have very usable false tones compared to the Besson and wide slots over the whole range (the no name Graslitz false tones are as good I never experienced before except on sousaphones). Despite that, the Besson is a very good tuba if for me not the best out of the three (head to head with the "no name") but more point and shoot.

[gocsick]

I've never played around with a compensating BBb... but that Eb is in the harmonic series for a bunch of different valve combinations

0 - 11th partial very sharp

1 - 12th partial

2+3

1+3 or 4

4+2

Obviously the 4th valve combos will be different for Compensating..

But 1+2 or 3 should be closer to an E than Eb. I am surprised you were able to make it work.

[Thomas]

But 1+2 or 3 should be closer to an E than Eb. I am surprised you were able to make it work.

That's what I thought, too. I just tried all possible combinations and 3 works/worked better than 1+2.

[bloke]

Did the restoration include a complete (not just pistons, but casings as well?) valve rebuild?

The #1 piston is typically the one that is the most worn.

Of course, E-flats are played with that valve on B-flat tubas.

Tightening up the valve tolerance certainly could change response.

I have a worn-valves 3-valve compensating (old) Besson.
Maybe I should "test" the E-flat...(??)
(In a box for "someday" is a 3+1 compensating valve set - same era - EXCELLENT valves - to transplant onto this instrument.)

...I'm interested in enhancing THIS Besson body, because
- 1960's vintage, thus better intonation than the new slightly larger ones
- has the detachable 24" recording bell
- additionally, I picked up an inexpensive EARLY VINTAGE (17") Yamaha YBB-201 bell, cut it for the Besson, and outfitted it with a genuine Besson male collar, whereby this instrument has BOTH bells

[Thomas]

I don't think it's the valves as they were already fine before the full restoration and just slightly lapped in again.

I found this (almost total unnecessary) note missing or bad on several tubas, even high class instruments.

Besides that, this is why I had the tuba (a 1966 17" New Standard 3+1, now raw brass - was originally laquered before) fully restored and enhanced "better than new":

...I'm interested in enhancing THIS Besson body, because
- 1960's vintage, thus better intonation than the new slightly larger ones
- has the detachable 24" recording bell
- additionally, I picked up an inexpensive EARLY VINTAGE (17") Yamaha YBB-201 bell, cut it for the Besson, and outfitted it with a genuine Besson male collar, whereby this instrument has BOTH bells

Those are totally underrated tubas, I have mine since 25 years and it has been my "swiss knife" since then. My ears and my tuner say "no slide pulling necessary". Interestingly I get rather strange looks from fellow tubists but very systematically I found that conductors like this tuba regardless of symphonic wind or traditional Bohemian (sic!) orchestras. Have I mentioned that I love the sound of the 17" version?

This (and a special family story connected to the instrument) made me invest some serious money and a lot of waiting time (more than two years...) into the tuba. But even, given the buying cost and the restoration costs it's still a budget tuba

Besson226.jpg (155.73 KiB) Viewed 5916 times

[bloke]

The only issue that I encounter with these instruments is the E-flat in the staff (not the one above the staff, which is your topic) being quite sharp, and adding the fourth valve doesn't do anything to fix this particular pitch.
... It's the same issue as with the Besson euphoniums.

[Thomas]

Mine never suffered from that issue, but I play rather deep cups which might lower the upper register a bit. Before the restoration, Ab in the staff was a bit low and Bb below the staff was a bit high when pushed. Somehow the restoration cured those issues although still noticeable if you knew them before and want to find them. I always liked the consistency and reliability all over the range in sound and intonation.

So I was happy when I found out that the restoration made the range even better and is not just visible - the high(est) Eb being a kind of nonsense litmus test . Still, interesting and good to know that it's this note that some instruments independent of maker and reputation have, some not.

[Mary Ann]

Of course I had to check; Eb fully present on Hagen and Alex 163 BBbs. I'd say the Alex is very slightly better in tune up there, but I'm using different cups.

[Jperry1466]

I had a similar experience when I owned a Mack Brass 421 CC, except it was the E4 (natural) that refused to play with any fingering. I could "squeeze" it out fingering it 4th valve, but the tuning was impossible. Any other combination sounded like I was trying to do a very bad lip trill, and I have heard countless other people say the same thing. Eb4 and F4 were not affected. My Miraphone 184 CC does not have that problem, so it has something to do with the internal engineering of the horn, and an engineer I am not.

[prodigal]

Now you all gave me something to try out on the PT-1.

(Generally though, if I see notes approaching the top of the staff, the CC tuba goes down, and up comes the F tuba. I'm always looking for any excuse to play my PT-15.)

Want some range fun? Play scales against a good cellist.

[bloke]

Now you all gave me something to try out on the PT-1.

(Generally though, if I see notes approaching the top of the staff, the CC tuba goes down, and up comes the F tuba. I'm always looking for any excuse to play my PT-15.)

Want some range fun? Play scales against a good cellist.

The cellist is going to be kind (as well as what they do in the orchestra out of necessity sometimes) and move their pitch to a typical tuba player's out of tune pitches. (The more satisfied the typical tuba player is with their own tuning prowess, the less likely they are to have any. )

[Thomas]

Want some range fun? Play scales against a good cellist.

That is only fair if the cellist plays tuba!

But surely a good practice routine for F or Eb tuba, painfully reminding me of my rather weak high range on F tuba while quiet "ok" on Eb.

[tofu]

I don't think it's the valves as they were already fine before the full restoration and just slightly lapped in again.

I found this (almost total unnecessary) note missing or bad on several tubas, even high class instruments.

Besides that, this is why I had the tuba (a 1966 17" New Standard 3+1, now raw brass - was originally laquered before) fully restored and enhanced "better than new":

...I'm interested in enhancing THIS Besson body, because
- 1960's vintage, thus better intonation than the new slightly larger ones
- has the detachable 24" recording bell
- additionally, I picked up an inexpensive EARLY VINTAGE (17") Yamaha YBB-201 bell, cut it for the Besson, and outfitted it with a genuine Besson male collar, whereby this instrument has BOTH bells

Those are totally underrated tubas, I have mine since 25 years and it has been my "swiss knife" since then. My ears and my tuner say "no slide pulling necessary". Interestingly I get rather strange looks from fellow tubists but very systematically I found that conductors like this tuba regardless of symphonic wind or traditional Bohemian (sic!) orchestras. Have I mentioned that I love the sound of the 17" version?

This (and a special family story connected to the instrument) made me invest some serious money and a lot of waiting time (more than two years...) into the tuba. But even, given the buying cost and the restoration costs it's still a budget tuba

Besson226.jpg

Yes - they are very much underrated tubas which I tend to blame on not being the new flavor of the month, a reputation amongst many players who played them in school (Bessons were used in a lot of USA schools) and they didn’t like them saying they were stuffy etc. These instruments could take a real beating and schools were/are notorious for bad maintenance. The horns lasted far longer than other makes and by the time a lot of students got them they were beat to death, with bad valves which suffered from both wear and bad alignment. These comps are really sensitive to bad valve alignment and worn out valves. I think people today pass on a lot of really reasonably priced ones instead buying new poorly made overpriced horns that are shiny and in fashion - especially people buying for HS and/or college students who are not going to be music majors.

I’ve got this 3 valve Besson New Standard Comp from 1969. I bought in 1981 from an elderly guy who bought in new and unfortunately shortly thereafter developed Parkinsons disease. I’ve had it for 45 years. It’s always been adult driven so no abuse - bought it right out of college because it was all I could afford and it served me well as my only horn for the first 20 years. Used in everything from Brass Band, concert band, orchestra, brass quintet and my 5 piece jazz combo etc. Actually pretty versatile. I too have made a ton of money from it and it always gets compliments for sound, blending and tuning. This one has no problem with the Eb you speak of, is not stuffy at all and has outstanding false tones which means no 4th valve isn’t a killer issue. Sings in the high register, solid low register and killer mid register. I do play it differently than my other horns. The combination of being able to afford multiple horns more tailored to certain groups and most of all my carpal tunnel just doesn’t like top action so I don’t play it much anymore, but I occasionally think of selling it, haul it to a rehearsal, everybody likes it and I think “jeez - I can’t sell it”.