Wessex CC 6/4 Rotary valve Tuba 'Titan'

[cktuba]

Chinese rotary horns concern me. I play on a Wessex Wyvern and I really like it. Intonation is spot on and you can get a huge sound out of it with the right mouthpiece. I like the idea of a rotary horn (I prefer rotary valves)... but not sure about this one. As of right now, those are not dice I'm willing to roll. However, I would like to try a Chicago Presence. And all of these Rudy 4/4 tubas coming up lately are tempting. I should have never sold mine.

[arpthark]

Chinese rotary horns concern me. I play on a Wessex Wyvern and I really like it. Intonation is spot on and you can get a huge sound out of it with the right mouthpiece. I like the idea of a rotary horn (I prefer rotary valves)... but not sure about this one. As of right now, those are not dice I'm willing to roll. However, I would like to try a Chicago Presence. And all of these Rudy 4/4 tubas coming up lately are tempting. I should have never sold mine.

Chinese rotor linkage is such a crapshoot. Eastman and JP seem good but I've played so many Wessex, Mack, Dillon, whatever, with linkage that just feels flimsy. I would not gamble on a Chinese horn with rotors without play testing one first. If they just upgraded the linkage to Minibal or 3B or something, it would be so much better.

[catgrowlB]

& isn't a letter.

"&" (Ampersand) was once considered a letter a long time ago. Fine, it is a character if you want to be absolute. Everyone knows what I mean. You are just nitpicking, and laughing because of a technicality.



Now, go find a Miraphone 188, buy it, and then sell it 5 months later....

[bort2.0]

I actually thought I missed something at first. But ok.

In your defense, it could be stylized as "BuS" as I've seen it written in German-language sites, which is spoken like "Bay und ess."

In American English, in the 1800s the ampersand was in fact considered and taught as the 27th letter of the alphabet. In German, it was never a letter though. Since B&S means Bleechbras und signalinstrumentenfabrik or something like that... I was just thinking that a lot more than 3 letters. And if not for the unfortunate double meaning of BS, perhaps they would just drop the "and" altogether.

As for your 188 comment, I'm glad my tuba journey has been so memorable for you.

[Timtamtuba]

& isn't a letter.

I can't think of what other brand they could be thinking of lol

[bloke]

My baby just wrote me & letter.

[bort2.0]

& isn't a letter.

I can't think of what other brand they could be thinking of lol

Ich bin verwirrt. "Blechblas und Signalinstrumentefabrik" has 35 letters.

[jtm]

& isn't a letter.

I can't think of what other brand they could be thinking of lol

Ich bin verwirrt. "Blechblas und Signalinstrumentefabrik" has 35 letters.

Mine just barely says anything at all; it’s not lacquered, and I suspect the previous owner kept it shiny (which it was when it reached me). And there are no little blue emblems (don’t know the story there), but the rotors are excellent!

[the elephant]

VMI

[PlayTheTuba]

Thoughts?

https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/cc ... 6250652852

Maybe im a hater but my initial thoughts are, wow do we really need another giant cc york tuba copy thing?
Full disclosure though
I had a very bad experience with a wessex tuba years ago and I don't think I'll ever get that taste out of my mouth.
I just struggle to think of who would buy this

Well, who would buy it?


At least Wessex makes a model in top action piston form (well it's in BBb, still), front action piston, and front action rotary of the same model or bugle.

The only two manufacturers I can think that has done something like that is Martin and Conn? Did King ever make their 1291 monster (or monsters in general) with pistons? Unless one would count one of their sousaphones.

Or if you kinda sorta count King pit tuba 1280 as the 4/4 rotary tuba. Seeing as the older recording bell kings with the main slide before the valves was available both as a front and top action piston configurations... Although I guess the Bill Bell CC would kinda sorta count too... Unless it's bigger than a 4/4 tuba, quick online searches are confusing me...

Martin: made top and front action pistons. Made a few rotories even one on top action form.

Conn: I am pretty the one (6/4) rotory Conn that I've tried once was made by them? Which means they have made top and front action pistons. Top and front action short stroke pistons. Normal Front action pistons. Has Conn made one of their large tubas with normal pistons in top action form?

Willson: at least on their website they've made front action pistons and rotaries. The Eb's and BBb's are also available with top action pistons too, which is neat.

Assuming Willson still makes all of those models that is on this website,

https://willson.ch/en/instrument/willso ... 454-rz-4-0

What are the chances of actually seeing them? At least for the rotaries, low to non-existent. Unicorns, fables, legends.



I'm glad there's variety, especially these days with 2026 "New Conn Selmer." At least in the 1930's there was a plethora of choices... If one was willing to pre-order and not buy whatever was available near them.

Hopefully the Wessex 6/4 rotory CC (and the 6/4 top action BBb while we're at or) will be present at the next Army Conference!!!!!!!!

[LibraryMark]

Chinese rotor linkage is such a crapshoot. Eastman and JP seem good but I've played so many Wessex, Mack, Dillon, whatever, with linkage that just feels flimsy. I would not gamble on a Chinese horn with rotors without play testing one first. If they just upgraded the linkage to Minibal or 3B or something, it would be so much better.

My 410 C has terrible linkages, and they were bad from new. I tell folks my horn has its own percussion section.

Since there are a gazillion of them out there all using the same linkages (and I would supect the same rotor "arm"), I am surprised that no one has offered a replacement kit that would solve the shortcomings.

[bloke]

The cheapest rotary linkage threads have too much tolerance and they don't stay tight.
With the constant impact that such screws are subjected to (and this includes those little round lock nuts) the thread tolerances need to be extremely close... bordering on difficult to screw in the screws.

That said, most of the noise that I track down in rotors and their linkage is in the rotors themselves. Up and down play... click click click click click...

I understand the Harbor Freight mentality:
("If this cheap tool works through other jobs beyond the one job I need it for, then that's a bonus.")
... but that's not the typical mentality of people who purchase musical instruments for themselves or for their schools.

These are general comments, and are neither brand nor factory directed, and mostly pertain to instruments that I worked on which were made in the past.

[catgrowlB]

Back on topic...

As others have pointed out, this Wessex 6/4 rotary 'Titan' is yet another 6/4 York-a-phone, but with a Neptune-like valveset. Who knows, some may want that
But I think the whole 6/4 York craze has been done to death at this point.

At least with the old VMI (B&S) 'Mel Culbertson' Neptune, it was truly unique. Sort of a blend of MW-2165 and PT-6. It's been years since I've played those tubas, but I think I'd personally prefer the VMI Neptune probably over the MW-2165, and certainly over the PT-6.

[bloke]

Back on topic...

As others have pointed out, this Wessex 6/4 rotary 'Titan' is yet another 6/4 York-a-phone, but with a Neptune-like valveset. Who knows, some may want that
But I think the whole 6/4 York craze has been done to death at this point.

At least with the old VMI (B&S) 'Mel Culbertson' Neptune, it was truly unique. Sort of a blend of MW-2165 and PT-6. It's been years since I've played those tubas, but I think I'd personally prefer the VMI Neptune probably over the MW-2165, and certainly over the PT-6.

Everyone here knows my current biases...

I wonder how many more or fewer of this model they might have sold, had it first introduced as a B-flat instrument (and a B-flat instrument with in-tune open F''s).

The 6/4 yorkophone craze has been going on since 1980, but how much longer has the "C tuba" craze been going on in America (and - subsequently - Japan) ?

bloke "I need a C tuba for college, and I prefer pistons...and silver.
Oh yeah... I also need an F tuba for college - preferably with really wonky intonation characteristics, so I can play a solo recital for 7 to 9 people - maybe even my girlfriend will be there unless she's working that night, and then sell it when I need to get my car fixed. I'm pretty sure that I want to buy a Westsux or an Eastwick... (Has anyone played the new Chinese Martin's?)"

[the elephant]

Not that anyone has asked, but I think that the leadpipe may have a really weird taper rate if the bore size is below the .800" range. A leadpipe that long on a 186 is 19.54 mm. On a big RM, the bore is significantly larger for the taper rate to be consistent from mouthpiece to bell (or at least the bell ferrule) because the valves are so far down the line.

Piston horns have short leadpipe, so the bore is smaller because the taper rate at the location where the valves will be installed takes the bore to that size.

Rotary horns have a much longer leadpipe (in most cases, using a traditional top-entry port), so the bore size at the point where you would insert a valve section is correspondingly larger.

To me, the tuba in the photos (or renderings, as might be the case) has a too-skinny leadpipe leading to a too-small valve set for what comes after them.

And now back to my morning YouTube videos…

[bloke]

Not arguing, but just remember that I had a RM 5/4 C (pretty darn good innate intonation) and cut the mouth pipe just past the bell whereby I could reattach the original small end of the mouth pipe or a replacement one - which continued to the receiver from the very same bore size and ended up much smaller (I believe my replacement ended up at only .530" at the small end.)

I had a full-time orchestra player (one I and most all of you greatly admire... I only played for them one time...ie. only one lesson) play it with both small end mouth pipes attached.
(No. This was not Gene, just fwiw)

They told me that the original large one was better. (Obviously that's what they were used to), but truth be told, they sounded the same on both, and their low register sonority and breadth was also the same with both.

Intonation-wise, the smaller mouth pipe had absolutely no effects (neither positive nor adverse).

the small small-end:
far easier to control and to play

Several years ago, I asked RM Jr. if the small ends of their tubas' mouthpipes are now smaller - than they were in the past - on this size instrument. The answer I was given was "yes".

[the elephant]

I was saying that the leadpipe on the tuba in question would have a VERY slow taper if the measurements are, IRL, imperial rather than metric. Nothing more. The bulk of the leadpipe would have very little taper up to that mm size over that distance. That is not a good thing. I am not commenting about the overall size, but the lack of significant taper.

[bloke]

That's interesting, and thnx for the clarification.
I sort of wonder whether "very little taper" or "quite a bit of taper" (in a mouthpipe tube) makes much difference, other than "feel" (particularly with the really big tubas, whereby the body taper is so pronounced that the mouthpipe taper < yes? no? > might tend to become moot).
...again, not arguing

As we point out (and which is obvious) the rotary tuba mouthpipes are nearly always going to taper more gradually, due to their length.

Whether this tuba's bore is c. .750" or .790", and whether the choke-point bore is .530", .550", or even (eek!) .600", it's going to feature noticeable taper from the receiver's choke-point to the first rotor...

I'm bad with 2D pictures, but this mouthpipe tube (unlike crazy-long typical "kaiser" mouthpipes - which loop up-and-down and use up incredible amounts of tape measure - appears to be (wild guess) roughly two feet long.

...or am I STILL missing the freakin' point? (which I may well be)


yeah...stereotypical "kaiser" mouthpipe tubes are LONG-ass, but (then again) they are also BB-flat.



TOPICAL:
The Wessex thing (whether slightly cattywampus or not) looks sorta interesting (even though cut to C). I wonder what the correct bore specs are.