pedagogical quackery?

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bloke
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pedagogical quackery?

Post by bloke »

I'm NOT setting this thread up so that I can eventually post in it and express my personal opinions.

Additionally, this isn't any sort of troll.

"so bloke, why would you start such a thread without wishing to say something about the topic?"

Well, I suppose I'm curious as to others opinions about teaching people how to play the tuba, what they view in the negative, as far as things which they have been told are going to improve their playing, what they actually believe either do not/did not improve their playing, or are actually possibly harmful.

I've said a couple of things multiple times in the past in the past - one that involves the actual nuts and bolts/mechanics of playing and another which involves the psychology of playing, but I believe I'm going to hold back on repeating those yet again.

I suppose I'm setting this thread up to see if it produces anything interesting rather, than the same old boring crap. 😐

Have fun.
Remembering that the usefulness/playability of specific models of instruments and the validity of pedagogical and performance techniques are actually the two most "political" things discussed here ("MY instrument"/"MY teacher"), YET these political topics are allowed.

modestly offered suggestion: Avoid charts and graphs.

Try to not argue. :thumbsup:


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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by russiantuba »

I was told by someone that the ability to play the orchestral excerpts was the best and only way to show the musical abilities of someone. That and those who play popular music and jazz are weaker musicians and how all practice time should be dedicated to the excerpts.

They couldn’t have been more wrong.
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shovelingtom (Sat Jul 04, 2026 9:11 am)
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by gocsick »

We should be like high school band directors and focus completely on tone... Beautiful long tones are the gold standard that defined a tuba player. Next is the ability to wiggle your fingers quickly to play fast passage (articulations didn't matter either it's tuba after all)

Who cares if we can't play in tune or in time...

I actually got into an argument with my sons band director about this. He made a comment about how surprised when my son made all state and other honor ensembles because he wasn't in the "top" school band. I told him he was testing the wrong skills and listening for the wrong things when placing tubas in the different bands.... and the ability to play an 8 bar excerpt from s technical trumpet piece down 2 octaves tells you nothing about how good someone is going to be at actually supporting the bottom end of your ensemble or to play with any degree of musicality. We have a fraught relationship... he is stuck s working with me as an active band booster officer for 5 more years...
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by Wilco »

More air… the solution for everything
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bloke (Sat Jul 04, 2026 9:59 am)
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by thedancingsousa »

I'm probably going to upset a lot of people by saying this, but I really hate free buzzing. Buzzing without the mouthpiece and without any resistance is mechanically an entirely different process to actual playing of the instrument. At best I could imagine it being argued for ear training or just building musculature in the embouchure, but I felt worse when I was doing it regularly by my teachers request. Little extra noises crept into my sound, like my bottom lip being braced against my upper teeth as I would to free buzz very low pitches as my teacher instructed. It took a lot of time and effort to unlearn those habits. They were almost unnoticeable from under the bell, but showed up in recordings. I only managed to recognize them on my own by wearing ear plugs and hearing it from inside my head while playing.

I truly hate free buzzing and think it has no place.
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by UncleBeer »

"Breathe from the belly". Puh-leeeeze. You could no sooner fill half a balloon with air. I'm sure it's rooted in some very fine pedagogist mumbo-jumbo, but . . . :laugh:
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by windshieldbug »

UncleBeer wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2026 8:34 am "Breathe from the belly". Puh-leeeeze. :laugh:

Don't say that! I've developed the largest belly in my state, and I hope it wasn't all for naught!
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by bloke »

Reading these responses is making me smile.
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by Mary Ann »

Haha. I find myself smiling at gocsick and wanting to watch that kind of interchange, because I know who is right, and it's not the band director.

Clearly I am no "tuba teacher" BUT -- I have managed to get a couple high brass players to understand what playing a tuba is compared to small-tubed brass. I explain that we don't buzz a tuba (they come in trying to buzz a pitch in the center of their embouchure and can't figure out why they get little farting noises.) I demonstrate, on low Eb OFF the tuba, what is going IN the tuba, which is a wide air column that has a faint resemblance to the Eb pitch in that you can barely discern some "Eb-ness" to it. Once i get them to BLOW LIKE HELL with a mouth shape like that, lo and behold, they get an Eb out of the 183 that sounds like a tuba, and a light bulb comes on. It's harder to do that with a BBb tuba because of the even more air required, but on the 183 it is a good demo (also why you shouldn't start kids on Bbb.)

I have one barrel-chested trumpet playing friend who can't get it. He, no matter the instruction, continues to raise his shoulders to breathe, also uses his chest muscles to breathe out, and probably only utilizes about 30% of what he has available.

I DO belly-breathe because it is the only thing that works. Maybe you just can't see it with big fat guys? If you don't believe me, go find a video of Carol Jantsch and watch HER belly as she plays. Q.E.D.

Have fun, bloke.
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by bloke »

I've noticed in old videos whereby Ms J arches backwards when she breathes. I'm not sure that that's accomplishing anything for her, but most every player has something they do that doesn't really contribute to the quality of their playing.
I've noticed that some really fine players cock their head to the side when they breathe in. It doesn't seem to hurt them, but I can't imagine it being necessary.
Raising shoulders is yet another thing that doesn't accomplish anything (other than tension I suppose..??)

I held off making any specific comments until now, but I guess I was commenting on comments.
I don't know what belly breathing is.
I can take shallow breaths and I can take deep breaths.

The diaphragm skeletal muscle going down is what pulls air into the lungs.
I take deep breaths when I'm working hard, running, when I yawn, or when there's time to do so when playing the tuba.
Most the time (in my life in general), I'm sure that I take shallow breaths.
When there's no time to even take a deep breath between phrases of music, I'll take in whatever amount of air I can manage to take in. 😐
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by Tubaken »

thedancingsousa wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2026 6:22 am I'm probably going to upset a lot of people by saying this, but I really hate free buzzing. Buzzing without the mouthpiece and without any resistance is mechanically an entirely different process to actual playing of the instrument. At best I could imagine it being argued for ear training or just building musculature in the embouchure, but I felt worse when I was doing it regularly by my teachers request. Little extra noises crept into my sound, like my bottom lip being braced against my upper teeth as I would to free buzz very low pitches as my teacher instructed. It took a lot of time and effort to unlearn those habits. They were almost unnoticeable from under the bell, but showed up in recordings. I only managed to recognize them on my own by wearing ear plugs and hearing it from inside my head while playing.

I truly hate free buzzing and think it has no place.
I would add that (IMHO) mouthpiece buzzing also has no place. Especially extensive mouthpiece buzzing away from the horn. This kind of ties into the other thread about what makes the sound. The horn IS NOT just amplifying the sound of your buzz. The only reason to buzz is to excite the air column inside the tuba. Practicing to get “a good buzz” is pointless. You have no idea if you’re potentially getting a good sound unless you’re actually playing the instrument.
Also, as I mentioned (ages ago) on the old forum, I personally know two very fine trombonists who ruined their chops (as in, had to stop playing for good) from excessive mouthpiece buzzing.
I know some on here have a completely opposite opinion, which is fine. Again, my experience is that it’s (almost) pointless.
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by bloke »

fair warning: Here goes.
(Mark me "foe" now, or forever hold your peace.) :laugh:

"free" buzzing:
It really seems to rile up a few people when I suggest this, but I suspect that when people do this without a mouthpiece or an instrument, they actually ARE causing their lips to bump against each other very fast (blowing them open, and then they close - with this occurring rapidly) to cause the frequencies, which is not what happens when we play our instruments (whereby - when we play our instruments - the lips are vibrating independently at the same frequency, as with a bassoon or (very high range, as with trumpet) oboe reed. I know this, because I know how far apart my lips are when I'm playing very low very loud frequencies (because I have nerve endings and sensation), and there's just no possible way that my lips could be touching when they are that far apart..

Also, when so-called "buzzing" with a mouthpiece, there's no instrument overtone series harmonic vibrating in conjunction with the lips to support the vibration, which thus requires a heroic effort on the part of the player... perhaps the equivalent of the absolute loudest playing that anyone ever might actually do (Think of those marching band sousaphone section contests...), I'm not sure that we really need to practice that very much at all.

Finally, to develop a (no pun intended) "good buzz", how in the heck do we know whether it's "good" or not "good" without hearing how it's interacting with our instrument?

When bassoon and oboe players make there wooden double reeds (vs. our flesh double reeds), they shave a little bit off here or there - based on experience - and constantly test them ON THEIR INSTRUMENT until they are satisfied.
-----------
Here is one case whereby I see value and vibrating the lips into the mouthpiece WITHOUT the instrument:
Shut off most of the end of the (tuba) mouthpiece whereby the resistance feels close to imitating the resistance felt by blowing through the mouthpiece with the instrument attached, and play through some passages - the objective being improving embouchure PITCH CONTROL, without relying so much on the instrument to control the pitches produced.
(I do this.)
Specifically, I decided that I needed to work on this when I switched to B-flat tuba, because the tremendous amount of cylindrical tubing required to play the F sharp up in the staff - when depressing valves 2 & 3 - is nearly as much cylindrical tubing added as when depressing the 4th valve on a C instrument, and that's quite a bit of cylindrical tubing for playing a pitch that high in the range. I realized that my pitch control needed to be spot on to avoid being afraid of that pitch, whereby - if my lip vibration frequency is true - that pitch will sound without faltering.

I don't believe that some of the things I said above are true for TRUMPET players, because their mouthpieces are about four times as long as ours are - in relation to the entire length of their instruments - and I believe they can buzz through their mouthpieces without feeling I need to artificially add resistance.
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by russiantuba »

gocsick wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2026 10:29 pm
I actually got into an argument with my sons band director about this. He made a comment about how surprised when my son made all state and other honor ensembles because he wasn't in the "top" school band. I told him he was testing the wrong skills and listening for the wrong things when placing tubas in the different bands.... and the ability to play an 8 bar excerpt from s technical trumpet piece down 2 octaves tells you nothing about how good someone is going to be at actually supporting the bottom end of your ensemble or to play with any degree of musicality. We have a fraught relationship... he is stuck s working with me as an active band booster officer for 5 more years...
But yet he continues to excel and be recognized on the national level. I remember a decade ago there was a chair placement challenge either there or in a middle school feeder where they gave a student that sounded sloppy (at least according to my student) the higher chair because he played it way faster :facepalm2:

I was hired last year to do an ensemble placement for a large high school band. I heard the first couple and had a lot of reservations thinking there had to be more, and as I saw the instruments get rougher and the playing level to go down. The directors wanted me to give emphasis to tone. I couldn’t decide on tone because I had to shake up an airy sound versus a supported sound that had major tension.

Normally when I judge tuba and euph, I look for complete package, but rhythm runs supreme. They had 4 etude segments, but half of the decisions I made just on the lyrical etude and scales. I’m pretty sure I shook up the order when I focused on rhythm and put the guy who had one of the more beat up tubas basically towards the top (I think the students ended up coming in with the last term’s chair placement). What made this even harder is there were some that I think just heard or were coached by one of the older players on the wrong rhythm because I heard the same wrong rhythms by several players.

Since I knew I shook the pot up, I emailed the directors on why I chose the results I did and told them that essentially because someone has a world class sound doesn’t make them the best player for your ensemble.
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

Post by AvrTuba »

If your goal is to better hear the pitch of a tricky passage, don't buzz it. Sing or breath attack it.

You'll get the same (or better) results without buzzing.

Buzzing on the tuba is so far from being connected to what actually happens when the mouthpiece is in the tuba that I contend it's not worth your time or effort.

Sing it.

Yes, Jacobs advocated for mouthpiece buzzing. But I think the general "Song and Wind" can be acheived just as well, if not better, by removing the mouthpiece from the equation.

Also, stop with the crazy tuba gymnastics. Sound, rhythm, pitch and musicality are what win jobs, not who can do the Olka drills as fast as possible.
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Re: pedagogical quackery?

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