The Cost of a Big Audition

[russiantuba]

A very good orchestra in my home state posted a tuba opening (first one in my lifetime) with a 6 figure salary, at a time of year that I could make the trip as it is after gigmas and right before the academic year begins (semi/finals are at a date a month later). I bring this to my wife, who teaches financial literacy and is very fast on the numbers, and she mentioned the fact to take this audition would be $1000 driving with current gas and hotel prices. I don't have flight cases and don't enjoy flying in general as it feels more restrictive, plus the high chance of damaged or misplaced instruments as well as the cost. Plus, the fact that I would be losing a few days of income to take the audition.

I took a regional audition that has about 6 concert series in a state that borders Ohio and there were people flying in from Utah and Texas, and I am just perplexed about this, and then to see that some have spent $30,000 in audition costs to never win a position makes me really further redefine what I want to do career wise (getting older doesn't help). Regional auditions are expensive enough, but at least I would stand a chance there.

I am posting this just out of shock for the costs to take one never actually sunk in when I was younger, when, when my financial woes growing up, should have been the first thing.

[JCTuba67]

Houston is a GREAT (not very good) but GREAT orchestra. Take the audition if you can. You make great valid points and I hope it can workout. Maybe find someone who’s interested in doing it and split the costs etc. I remember when Dennis Miller played there for a year and was offered the Job but his wife didn’t want to live in Texas. He told me in a lesson eons ago he loved it there. Same with Warren. Warren said he took a pay cut going to NY which makes sense with living costs parking etc.

[russiantuba]

Houston is a GREAT (not very good) but GREAT orchestra. Take the audition if you can. You make great valid points and I hope it can workout. Maybe find someone who’s interested in doing it and split the costs etc. I remember when Dennis Miller played there for a year and was offered the Job but his wife didn’t want to live in Texas. He told me in a lesson eons ago he loved it there. Same with Warren. Warren said he took a pay cut going to NY which makes sense with living costs parking etc.

Rich Watson said his ears never unclogged from the plane. He made finals and was the runner up, lost by one vote. Houston isn’t super crazy expensive to live in either compared to some of the east coast cities, and there are plenty of teaching opportunities around (Rice). The horn and bassoon professors at my DMA held positions in Houston and are leading players on their instruments. Trying to find a way to make it work.

[bort2.0]

It reminds me of how I know some incredible visual artists (painting, sculpture, etc...), but they make little to none of their living wages through art. Even with their level of talent and skill.

I think that being a professional musician is far more of a vocation than it is a career move.

[PRO]

The year-round humidity in Houston is commonly described as "oppressive". (I can attest to that from personal experience.)
Recommend you read https://www.cityrating.com/cityhumidity ... ty=Houston (and/or similar websites).

The cost of living in Houston is said to be bearable, particularly because TX has no state income tax. But that is a double-edged sword -- because generally speaking when you move to a place with lower cost of living, costs seem prohibitive when you later decide to move away.

And you will want to consider other factors. This is not about taking the audition, which is a mere moment -- one to be enjoyed. Rather, this is about life ongoing.

[JCTuba67]

The year-round humidity in Houston is commonly described as "oppressive". (I can attest to that from personal experience.)
Recommend you read https://www.cityrating.com/cityhumidity ... ty=Houston (and/or similar websites).

The cost of living in Houston is said to be bearable, particularly because TX has no state income tax. But that is a double-edged sword -- because generally speaking when you move to a place with lower cost of living, costs seem prohibitive when you later decide to move away.

And you will want to consider other factors. This is not about taking the audition, which is a mere moment -- one to be enjoyed. Rather, this is about life ongoing.

I think that paints Houston in a much more negative way than it deserves.

Yes, Houston is humid, especially in the summer. Nobody should pretend otherwise. But calling it oppressive year-round is an exaggeration. The worst stretch is during the hotter months, and almost every home, workplace, car, rehearsal hall, store, and restaurant is air-conditioned. Millions of people live full and productive lives there without the weather defining their entire experience.

The cost-of-living argument also feels backwards to me. A lower cost of living is usually an advantage. Paying less for housing, having no state income tax, and living in a major job market can make it easier to save money, invest, travel, and plan for the future. A person is not trapped just because another city might be more expensive later. That depends on income, savings, career growth, and planning.

Houston also has a lot going for it. It is one of the largest and most diverse cities in the country, with a major medical center, strong arts organizations, excellent food, two major airports, relatively affordable housing, and a large community of musicians and educators.

Of course the decision is about more than taking an audition. That is exactly why the whole picture matters. Houston should not be reduced to humidity and the idea that moving somewhere else later might cost more.

Houston has real drawbacks, including heat, traffic, flooding, and sprawl. But whether those outweigh the professional, financial, cultural, and personal benefits is a personal decision, not an obvious conclusion.

[Mary Ann]

What I noted about Texas is that real estate taxes are exorbitant. I couldn't afford to buy a decent house there because of that. Yes the taxes "freeze" at age 65 but they wouldn't "freeze" them where I they would have been when I was 65.

If you have any mold susceptibility you do not want to live in Houston. Hurricanes, flooding, facts of life. People have to escape their homes every year in one area or another.

It's a great big Southern Texas city. If you like that, you might like Houston. Do you really want to be a symphony tuba player? To me, that is the real question -- are you thinking of it as "what a neat opportunity" or "I would love doing that for the next 30 years?"

[PRO]

Of course the decision is about more than taking an audition. That is exactly why the whole picture matters. Houston should not be reduced to humidity and the idea that moving somewhere else later might cost more.

Those are the two factors that I would want russiantuba to know about when considering a move to Houston. As I said to russiantuba, "... you will want to consider other factors". There is no basis for your statement that I have "reduced" Houston to (just) two factors.

Thank you for pointing out what you see as some of Houston's strong points. Thank you for pointing out what you see as some of Houston's weak points -- heat, traffic, flooding, and sprawl. It seems to me that all such information is what russiantuba may be asking for, so that he and his wife may make an informed decision.

[JCTuba67]

Of course the decision is about more than taking an audition. That is exactly why the whole picture matters. Houston should not be reduced to humidity and the idea that moving somewhere else later might cost more.

Those are the two factors that I would want russiantuba to know about when considering a move to Houston. As I said to russiantuba, "... you will want to consider other factors". There is no basis for your statement that I have "reduced" Houston to (just) two factors.

Thank you for pointing out what you see as some of Houston's strong points. Thank you for pointing out what you see as some of Houston's weak points -- heat, traffic, flooding, and sprawl. It seems to me that all such information is what russiantuba may be asking for, so that he and his wife may make an informed decision.

He is not moving to Houston right now. He is only considering taking the audition.

He would have to win the job before he and his wife ever needed to make a serious decision about moving there. Until that happens, the humidity, traffic, flooding, sprawl, taxes, and long-term cost of living are not really the main issue.

The immediate decision is simply whether the audition is worth taking. My point is that he should take it, see how he performs, and then make decisions based on the actual result. If he advances or wins, then it makes sense to take a deeper look at what living in Houston would be like.

There is nothing wrong with asking for opinions online, but not every opinion is necessarily accurate, useful, or relevant to the decision in front of him. Sometimes too much discussion about hypothetical problems can talk someone out of an opportunity before the opportunity even exists.

[PRO]

He is not moving to Houston right now. He is only considering taking the audition.

This is not about taking the audition, which is a mere moment -- one to be enjoyed. Rather, this is about life ongoing.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

The immediate decision is simply whether the audition is worth taking. My point is that he should take it, see how he performs, and then make decisions based on the actual result. If he advances or wins, then it makes sense to take a deeper look at what living in Houston would be like.

I disagree. If a candidate is going to spend $1000+ on an audition, they should be informed enough to know that they are likely to accept the job if offered it. To do otherwise is a waste of time and money for both the candidate and hiring organization.

[Charlie C Chowder]

Another reason I do not regret choosing not to be a working musician back in 1970.

Plus the fact that I suck at sight reading,
CCC

[JCTuba67]

The immediate decision is simply whether the audition is worth taking. My point is that he should take it, see how he performs, and then make decisions based on the actual result. If he advances or wins, then it makes sense to take a deeper look at what living in Houston would be like.

I disagree. If a candidate is going to spend $1000+ on an audition, they should be informed enough to know that they are likely to accept the job if offered it. To do otherwise is a waste of time and money for both the candidate and hiring organization.

I understand the concern about spending $1,000 or more, but I still think you are putting the final decision too far ahead of the actual process.

A candidate can research the salary, orchestra, contract, general cost of living, and major lifestyle considerations before applying. That should be enough to determine whether the job is realistically worth pursuing. But nobody can fully know whether they would accept until the opportunity becomes real. Circumstances change, contract details matter, negotiations may happen, and a person’s feelings about the orchestra and city may change after the audition experience itself.

Taking an audition is not a promise to accept the job. The orchestra is evaluating several candidates, and the candidates are also evaluating the orchestra. Both sides understand that an offer can be declined. That is part of any hiring process.

It would only be a waste of time if the candidate already knew with certainty that they would never accept the position under any circumstances. That is not what is being discussed here. The point is that he appears interested in the job and should take the audition. If he wins or becomes a serious finalist, then he and his wife can examine Houston, the finances, housing, family considerations, and everything else in much greater detail.

Right now, he does not have a job offer. He has an audition opportunity. Those are two different decisions.

[Bassboner]

There was an audition for 2nd bone in a small local orchestra. Embarrassingly only pays $70/service. People flew in from out of state. Airfare, hotel, rental car, meals, etc. It would take a lot of $70 services to break even on this gig. In the end, the orchestra hired no one. Staggering waste of resources.

Who does auditions like this, and who is bankrolling them?

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

You’ve misrepresented what I wrote. I said “they should be informed enough to know that they are likely to accept the job if offered it.” It’s not a guarantee or a commitment. It’s doing due diligence to understand whether your investment is worth it. The higher the cost of auditioning, the more important the due diligence is.

I’m also not suggesting that a candidate can’t change their mind based on the criteria you listed. They should absolutely keep an open mind throughout the audition and negotiation processes to determine whether it is a good fit or not.

[JCTuba67]

You’ve misrepresented what I wrote. I said “they should be informed enough to know that they are likely to accept the job if offered it.” It’s not a guarantee or a commitment. It’s doing due diligence to understand whether your investment is worth it. The higher the cost of auditioning, the more important the due diligence is.

I’m also not suggesting that a candidate can’t change their mind based on the criteria you listed. They should absolutely keep an open mind throughout the audition and negotiation processes to determine whether it is a good fit or not.

I understand your clarification, and I agree that a candidate should do basic due diligence before spending that kind of money. They should know the salary, contract length, benefits, general cost of living, and whether the job is at least realistically attractive to them.

Where I disagree is with how much certainty is required before taking the audition. “Likely to accept” can sound reasonable, but there are too many unknowns before the process begins. A candidate may not know how they feel about the orchestra, the work environment, the city, the final compensation package, or the effect on their family until the possibility becomes real.

The audition itself is also part of that due diligence. It allows the candidate to experience the organization, meet people, see the area, and learn more than they could from online research or opinions on a forum.

So yes, someone should not spend $1,000 auditioning for a job they already know they would reject. But if the job is a legitimate possibility and they are open to accepting it, I do not think they need to decide in advance that acceptance is more likely than not. They should take the audition, see what happens, and make the final decision with actual information rather than trying to settle every hypothetical beforehand.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Where I disagree is with how much certainty is required before taking the audition. “Likely to accept” can sound reasonable, but there are too many unknowns before the process begins. A candidate may not know how they feel about the orchestra, the work environment, the city, the final compensation package, or the effect on their family until the possibility becomes real.

Emphasis above is mine.

My point is a candidate should minimize the number of unknowns as much as possible. What they do with that information and how they prioritize it is ultimately up to them, but they shouldn't invest in an audition from a place of ignorance. Information is more accessible than it has ever been, so whether it means looking up neighborhoods on Zillow, digging through an orchestra's website and social media feed, or sending an email to current or former members of an orchestra to get a better understanding of a job, there's really no reason to not ask the questions.

"Likely to accept" is intentionally incredibly broad. It's another way of saying "I have no compelling reason to not be interested in this job", whatever that may be.

As a tangent to your point, doing this type of due diligence is exactly how a candidate walks into an audition or negotiation with the right questions in mind to ask. They've already scoped the place out and are aware of areas of concern they would like to know more about and are able to use it come to a fully informed decision.

[russiantuba]

As a native Texan who did a degree out in west Texas, very familiar with Houston, the overall costs and issues of Texas. There are so few performance jobs out there for those who want to do this, that if you won a big job, you would get used to it if it is what you really want. Living in LA, Boston, and NYC aren’t for me, but if I was able and funded, I’d audition for all to get to do this full time. $113,000 a year is over twice what This is over 1.5x the principal pay of Columbus for example.

This isn't much different, IMO, for working for a corporate company where they transfer you without asking or the only way to get a promotion is to move from your southern town to Minneapolis, for example.

————
Something very important to bring up is that finals are a month later. I have talked to a couple colleagues in the field that have mentioned that this is a red flag that some will be auto-advanced, likely based on current positions and potentially those who have subbed. I can understand a day or two later, but a month is my issue.

So if you are lucky enough to make it outside of the cattle call prelim, get ready for another potential $1000 if you aren’t in the area. I will continue to give credit to Baltimore I believe and Iceland who allowed candidates to record a prelim or go in person.

[tokuno]

Are audition costs deductible?

Side note: Pinkerton's bbq in Houston ... oh, my!

[bloke]

The only time to spend any money on an audition is if there is a serious, well-informed, and sober plan and expectation of being offered the job for which one is being interviewed. ("sober": a realistic view of one's own capabilities and playing prowess)

Candidates who are "the best in town", first chair in their college band, and that sort of thing are simply not seriously considered for big-city 52-week types of jobs. "Top" orchestras are looking to fill their vacancy with someone better than the person who left or retired, and not just someone who will "do". They recognize names of applicants who are likely to be the strong ones, and also reach out to players who they hope will consider applying (perhaps offering invited players semi-final or even final-round-only auditions).

The prestigious conservatories (and not just universities that changed the name of their "department of music" to "school of music") are where the future candidates (who willing to be considered for these jobs - all of which pay very modestly for the quantity of hours of work (at home, driving, and at the venues) are to be found. These sorts of people make a point of playing solo works in public as often as possible, as well as in front of people who they view as their "betters" - both to become known, and also to drop the tendency towards nerves ("nerves" - while performing, concentrating on what others might be thinking, vs. concentrating completely on what they themselves are doing in the moment - as well as what they will be doing in subsequent moments).

These sorts off people audition (not just for per-service, 30-week, 40-week, and 52-week) actual jobs, but also audition for summer/seasonal (often: no-pay) music festival orchestras (and I'm not referring to Interlochen, Blue Lake, or those sorts of things geared towards secondary school-aged talented young players), but orchestra experiences such as Round Top, National Repertory Orchestra, New York String Seminar, Vail, Mancini, and those sorts of things. This is where top conservatory students network - as well as beginning to make names for themselves outside of their own music conservatories.

Rather than attending cattle-calls and being rejected after the first two excerpts (for "audition experience") the very serious emerging young artists spend travel money on studying with other top players (top) throughout the country - in addition to their conservatories' own instructors (for other p's.o.v. as well as critiquing/encouraging them with different words/concepts other than those to which they may have been previously exposed).

Over the decades, I've heard failed auditioners recite rhetoric such as "you never know what they're looking for" (implying that their own playing is up to competent - if not top-level - standards, whereby a particular committee is looking for a particular type of resonance/style/what-have-you.

These assumptions/presumptions are incorrect, and don't assist those dismissed candidates - who recite them on the way back to their automobiles - towards embracing reality and realistic self-evaluation.

The truth is (including the $X,XXX jobs through the $1XX,XXX+ jobs) committees are seeking (and hoping to discover)

- steady time
- impeccable intonation
- a marketable sound (Realize that there's ONE tuba, so it doesn't necessarily need to be "that certain quality of sound" that "blends with the other two trombones"). Simply, it needs to tune, rhythmically line up, tune, and musically jive with the trombones.
- musical phrasing
- a demonstration of intimate knowledge of the outtakes from the pieces of music the candidate is asked to perform.

I've mentioned this before, but a trumpet player (who served on a tuba committee) told me about a woodwind player (also on that committee) who - between candidates (perhaps with the third or fourth dozen wave of candidates about to audition) asked, "...so, is this as good as it gets...??"
which indicates that the overwhelming percentage of (those particular tuba) candidates obviously weren't qualified (even though ads often mention/warn "only the most highly-qualified candidates should apply"). ...but I suppose (??) quite a few unqualified candidates (either not grounded to reality, not aware of the high standards required, or both) view themselves as "the most highly qualified".

Rather than comparing oneself to the locals, patting oneself on the back for being selected at the college's concerto competition, or even beginning to view oneself as exceeding the playing prowess of their regular studio teacher, serious audition candidates should be emulating and attempting to measure up to the world's finest instrumentalists (ALL instruments) and vocalists, and the actually-qualified and serious candidates do this.

Here's how to spend less money on auditions:
A candidate should only spend the considerable amount of money to travel to audition if they (again, with a sober and realistic self-evaluation) plan to be offered the job, and plan to accept the job.