mashing the correct buttons

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bloke
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mashing the correct buttons

Post by bloke »

Into the '00 years, all I owned was my F tuba. It's a remarkable instrument, which is why I was able to get by only playing that one instrument (along with playing bass...but whatever on that).
I had owned some C instruments (one at a time). I'm not going to discuss why I was disappointed with each of them, because I'll likely receive responses from people who own those models, and that's not why I'm posting.

As far as C instruments are concerned, the first one I bought (AFTER the C moratorium... again, NOT discussing those that I had owned previously) was a Gronitz PCK, and then (selling that one to a full-time professional) a 5450 (which was the last one that I owned). I had also built myself a remarkably nice playing (in every respect) five valve C helicon made of Buescher 4/4 sousaphone and tuba parts which many remember, as well as going through a parade of 6/4 C tubas (which I eventually all found to be tedious).

It's pretty hard (as overly-prolifically as I post here) to miss the fact that I've moved over to B flat instruments in the past few years (boredom? European traditions? resonance? tendency towards easier intonation characteristics?)

The thing is that the F tuba has just sat and sat and sat and sat, as I've been determined to be as comfortable with B-flat (and my two go-to B flat instruments in particular) as I previously was playing C instruments.

Last night I picked up the F tuba and decided to give myself a little test. I played one of the Rochut/Bordogni exercises over in Book III which is in F sharp minor and then F sharp major (one of those few which I still had not checked off).
OK... I got through it, but I had to do a lot o' thinkin':
Oddly, I found myself sight-singing (in my head) the written passages I was reading and playing (long ago burned into my head) fingering patterns (the scales and arpeggios I was hearing in my head from sight-singing) - on the F tuba - rather than actually reading the notes, as - again - the automatic connection a valve combinations to the named pitches (with the F instrument) become rusty, and was substituting another (two-stage) way of reading...

...so I'll return to playing the F instrument, and not ignoring it.
(I actually have pulled the F instrument out for a few quintet engagements, those are always just gigs (not recitals) whereby I haven't had any problem reading those charts and playing the F tuba, but I can tell that my reading ability (given last night's test) has softened.

Finally, that instrument is absolutely a true pleasure to play:
intonation, legato, low air demand yet high level of resonance output (extraordinarily long phrases possible, sort of as with oboe players...with the luxury of being able to choose to ignore chances to breathe), beautiful resonance (as long as I stick my mouth on the mouthpiece in some sort of way).

Trombone sections have always liked this instrument, regardless of whether the particular literature is typically played on a contrabass tuba or not.

...but I need to sustain my ability to - with this instrument - sightread and mash the correct buttons. and without having to resort to some two stage process. :bugeyes:


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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by Mary Ann »

I'm getting better at mashing the right levers (no buttons for my skinny fingers) on the Eb and am only moderately confused between it and the F/Bb horn. Moderately. Since one is right handed and the other left, I think that helps the feeble aging brain with the pattern recognition.
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by bloke »

@Mary Ann

yeah levers

I haven't found any piston F tubas that can easily be played in tune.

🤫

I play E flat on dixie jobs, but I never practice playing it.
It seems to know which notes to play without me telling it...
... and I've never developed any really good reading skills with E-flat...' never had the need.
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by prodigal »

I did the same thing in Friday, playing BBb on stuff I'm comfortable with on CC.

Solfege is the key to the universe.

(I have a hard time getting past the PT-15 to get to the 186, and I love my 186. B&S F tubas should be handled like narcotics, and you've got one of the best ones. :tuba:
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bloke (Sun Jun 21, 2026 7:54 pm)
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by Mary Ann »

The only B&S F I ever played belonged to Mark Nelson (probably still does) and I was comparing it to the MW 182 I had. The B&S definitely had an easier low register, and I suspect it was at least in league with the NStar in that respect, and maybe even easier. I am a way better player now than I was then, too, so if I wanted to play an F again (I don't) it would at least be interesting to give a go to one of those.
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prodigal (Mon Jun 22, 2026 4:41 am)
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by bloke »

Yeah that's exactly it... Solfege, but sort of like the speed readers who read a paragraph or page at a time... We've (I don't know how old you are..??) been reading music for so damn long that we can glance at a measure, know what the MEASURE sounds like (or a few measures sound like) and then play them by ear with fingering patterns instead of thinking about the note names.


..and that's also why the double sharps don't bother us, because we're not really reading them.

solfege...
Yeah. That's how I was getting by playing in F sharp minor and major with the F tuba after hardly playing it at all for 2 or 3 years.

Thanks for coming up with correct word for what I was trying to describe.

... but I need (so-called remote keys) to be able to read the regular/mechanical way as well (as in the past, when I spent more time with the instrument).
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prodigal (Mon Jun 22, 2026 4:41 am)
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by prodigal »

I think it's easiest that way, when I think about the combinations, it's like playing CC and BBb at the same time with a few weirdo combinations in the middle.
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by Stryk »

I have an F that just sits because learning F fingerings at almost 70 is futile! :bugeyes:
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by tubatodd »

Semi-off topic:

"Mashing buttons" is definitely an American Southern phrase. Growing up in NY I would have never said "mash" with "button". That was until I met my wife and her family and moved to Alabama.
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prodigal (Mon Jun 22, 2026 7:34 pm)
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by bloke »

Also, a button is a paddle and a paddle is a button.

Mashing is depressing... but only when something's too hard. :laugh:
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by Bassboner »

I've always marveled at how tuba players keep different fingerings systems in their heads. Other instrument players have special transpositions written for them - Eb clarinet, D trumpet, saxophones... It's the reason Ive avoided alto trombone, and gave up on Eb tuba, going back to Bb. Bb is just so ingrained, it's hard to imagine doing anything else. I'm afraid learning somrhing else will make me rusty on Bb.

F tuba makes a lot of sense to me since I'm already familiar with F "fingerings" from the tbone f attachment. I'm just afraid to make that leap. Plus the extra expense of another instrument safari to find one that speaks to me.
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by prodigal »

You're on a biased thread here. bloke and arpthark have B&S Symphonies, the IMlessthanHO, greatest tuba ever made, at least from a solo standpoint. I miss mine from college everyday.

I've got a pretty spicy PT-15 right now which is better than I thought it could be. I had a meh PT-10 20 years ago that was still pretty okay, though.

So, in conclusion, B&S F tubas make the world go round!
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arpthark (Mon Jun 22, 2026 7:59 pm)
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by bloke »

They are copied more than any other.

I'm not even sure if the non-handmade version with five bore sizes today features a mouth pipe tube that tapers down to a scant half inch choke point (actually possibly ..490"

The Eastman version mouth pipe tube doesn't get that small

I sort of wonder how small those "ZO" mouth pipe choke points are that Tom used to sell. To me, those played the most like a communist era Symphonie model.

What a lot of people aren't aware of is that the original ones featured a small shank (bass trombone size shank).

Mine - even though it was a pretty late instrument (1982) - featured a receiver that was a non-standard taper, as I think the back end of the mouthpiece taper was sort of like the original small shank taper and would catch the mouthpiece back there before it caught the rest of it. (I fixed that with a Jarno #5 reamer, after finally getting sick and tired of it.)

Gold-brass Symphonie F tubas..
Believe it or not, more than once I was in a room with several of those, and the gold brass ones never seemed to be my favorites. That said, I'm not one who credits the alloy of the sheet metal with much of anything.
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by prodigal »

My 186 is the small shank version.

When did the makers "standardize" between American, European, and the "PT" size?

I think that I like the PT shank best, I like the versatility of using just about any mouthpiece.
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by iiipopes »

Ah, yes: button mashing. I have an outdoor gig coming up that a sit-in musician wants me to play my sousaphone as a novelty on an arrangement of Waltzing Bear. All well and good, but what he had was a treble clef concert pitch piano line of the melody that he wants me to solo. Talk about pulling out the cobwebs of the brain! In any event, I made it through rehearsal, but since we only had one rehearsal before the gig next Sunday in a neighborhood park pavilion, and the solo is only on one "verse," I did come home and write it out so I could practice properly. The sit-in musician was "amazed" I could read it. I thanked him. I didn't tell him that sight transposition, in whatever form, whether the instrument or the notation, or both, is a fundamental required for all tuba players who play in different genres.
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bloke (Tue Jun 23, 2026 8:29 am)
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by bloke »

I've spoken of a friend of mine a few times over the years. He's mostly a sax player but possesses tremendous flute and clarinet technique as well as trumpet and bass trumpet and pretty good slide trombone, as well as keyboard and bass.
Over the past several years, she's been playing a lot of keyboard and finds himself playing keyboard with his right hand and his saxophone with his left hand at the same time (routinely).

Something that impressed me at a recording session (this was quite a few years ago) was when he sight-read this trombone solo (link - cued up - just after this paragraph) that the composer had written out (as a bridge to this funky-jazz-rap composition).

The notes (pitches) were all correct on the piece of paper but the notation was all wrong (as far as time values of the notes and rests), yet my friend (sight reading the solo) figured out how the notes fit into the piece (into the time) and this is what he recorded on the first/only take:
(The composer couldn't "sing" the solo to him in the correct time values, because that guy had survived throat cancer, and spoke with one of those "buzz boxes".)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sne7eRr ... rum.net%2F

tuba...?? :tuba:
At that time, I still owned the Buescher C helicon that I had put together, as well as the M-W 5450 (another C instrument).
Experience had taught me that I could get more of a "quasi-electronic" type of sound with the 5450 on recordings, whereas the Buescher helicon - on recordings - came off as unbashedly funky.

I used the M-W 5450 on the LINKED ABOVE tune, because I thought that tune needed more of a quasi-electronic-bass type of sound.

contrast?
This is the Buescher C helicon... THESE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKPDt_Ve06g (I also ended up dubbing in the trombone track in on this one myself, because we put this one off until last, it was 4 P.M., and my multi-horn friend - who played the trombone solo on the funky-rap tune - had a gig 5. Yes, that's a trombone "high B-flat" at the end that I played...I had no choice - voicing, because the lead trombone had decided to stick that concert E-flat one top. :bugeyes: )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06oD-dyi8Q This was a "groove" tune that the lead trumpet player wrote and brought in to the session.
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by tadawson »

bloke wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2026 6:29 pm Also, a button is a paddle and a paddle is a button.

Mashing is depressing... but only when something's too hard. :laugh:
Really? I'd love to see you button a canoe upstream! :smilie2:
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by bloke »

tadawson wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2026 12:08 pm
bloke wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2026 6:29 pm Also, a button is a paddle and a paddle is a button.

Mashing is depressing... but only when something's too hard. :laugh:
Really? I'd love to see you button a canoe upstream! :smilie2:
Hey,
No one ever accused me of not being able to supply a stupid response to a stupid comment. :laugh:

Buttoning" a canoe refers to rigging a traditional canvas-and-wood canoe with a spray deck (or canoe cover), securing it tightly with snaps around the outer edges. This setup prevents large waves or splashes from swamping the boat in rough water or cold weather
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by tadawson »

Still won't getcha upstream though . . . :laugh:
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bloke (Mon Jun 29, 2026 12:55 pm)
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Re: mashing the correct buttons

Post by bloke »

tadawson wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2026 12:25 pm Still won't getcha upstream though . . . :laugh:
All I have is a aluminum 12 ft round bottom fishing boat that I paid $40 for in the last 5 minutes of an estate sale (found hidden in the weeds... They didn't know it was there. I offered $40. They said $250. I offered $40, they said $200. I offered $40, they said $100. I offered $40, they said $50, I offered $40, they took $40.
. They were there that day to sell off that stuff that had belonged to grandpa, and had a plane to catch.) I'm going to use the motor. I'm too old to paddle.

If I wanted to "paddle upstream", I could name some models of tubas whereby I could do that figuratively, but all that would do would be to piss off a bunch of people who own those models.
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