Before Deciding Music as a Major...

[1 Ton Tommy]

Who in the arts today gets paid commensurate with the cost of their education? Taylor Swift?

Even Diana Krall played jazz standards on piano 6 nights a week in LA for 20 years before landing a recording contract, or so she says. Swift, of course, is a business genius or at least follows the advice of her father who may be one. I chanced to ask Krall once if it was the water, or what, on Vancouver Island, that had produced a small handful of internationally recognized musicians. “Not the water, the record store,” she answered. I suspect there’s more to it than that. My friend, Shawn, who died last week of alcoholism at 47 was every bit the musician of either Swift or Krall and would have died a pauper but for a Navy pension.

I played at his funeral yesterday, in front of a dozen top-shelf musicians who’d been in his bands. None of them is well heeled. And Shawn did not have the good fortune to marry well at a young age. Krall was nearing 40 when she married Elvis Costello.

Any aspiring music major should have to watch the movie “The Fabulous Baker Boys.” Even Michelle Pfeiffer’s character, who saved the act, walks off into an uncertain future in the last scene of the movie. A onetime girlfriend of mine, who subbed for both her parents in the viola section of the Seattle Symphony, walked out of a half-time seat and our relationship to study classics in Greece. Now there’s a money maker. All she had to do was wait for her father to retire from the section and she could have had his seat. And the Symphony has their own union local.

Because of a broad education, I’ve worked at a variety of jobs including music, and, excepting music have been well paid. Sometimes my nieces and nephews asked for career advice. “Roll with the punches,” I’ve said. Set yourselves up to be able to adapt to change; “computer programming won’t last forever,” I’ve said. Lately, I’ve realized, that’s a tall order. And now there's AI.

[bloke]

Who in the arts today gets paid commensurate with the cost of their education? Taylor Swift?

Even Diana Krall played jazz standards on piano 6 nights a week in LA for 20 years before landing a recording contract, or so she says. Swift, of course, is a business genius or at least follows the advice of her father who may be one. I chanced to ask Krall once if it was the water, or what, on Vancouver Island, that had produced a small handful of internationally recognized musicians. “Not the water, the record store,” she answered. I suspect there’s more to it than that. My friend, Shawn, who died last week of alcoholism at 47 was every bit the musician of either Swift or Krall and would have died a pauper but for a Navy pension.

I played at his funeral yesterday, in front of a dozen top-shelf musicians who’d been in his bands. None of them is well heeled. And Shawn did not have the good fortune to marry well at a young age. Krall was nearing 40 when she married Elvis Costello.

Any aspiring music major should have to watch the movie “The Fabulous Baker Boys.” Even Michelle Pfeiffer’s character, who saved the act, walks off into an uncertain future in the last scene of the movie. A onetime girlfriend of mine, who subbed for both her parents in the viola section of the Seattle Symphony, walked out of a half-time seat and our relationship to study classics in Greece. Now there’s a money maker. All she had to do was wait for her father to retire from the section and she could have had his seat. And the Symphony has their own union local.

Because of a broad education, I’ve worked at a variety of jobs including music, and, excepting music have been well paid. Sometimes my nieces and nephews asked for career advice. “Roll with the punches,” I’ve said. Set yourselves up to be able to adapt to change; “computer programming won’t last forever,” I’ve said. Lately, I’ve realized, that’s a tall order. And now there's AI.

Everyone wants their plumbing to work. That said, everyone's just as eager to have their heating and air in working order - at that stuff busts more often than plumbing.

[Schlitzz]

The regulars here know my story --- violin major, ten years of not being happy with my income sources even though I was good enough for a regional orchestra, and I realized I was going to never be able to live as well as my parents had (middle class in the 50s-60s on one income.) Decided to heck with that, went and did BSEE with power option and stuck with it from age 32-39, school, work, school, work. It still cracks me up that I got a full tuition scholarship in engineering school for playing violin in the college orchestra.
Retired now, own a nice house, have a pension. I got what I needed, it was a good fit, and music for me now is a fantastic hobby. No pressure to play perfectly, I can honk around on ten different instruments at a reasonably competent level, and life is good.

Yeah, there it is. The viola wasn't challenging enough for you at that time.

[Schlitzz]

Who in the arts today gets paid commensurate with the cost of their education? Taylor Swift?

Even Diana Krall played jazz standards on piano 6 nights a week in LA for 20 years before landing a recording contract, or so she says. Swift, of course, is a business genius or at least follows the advice of her father who may be one. I chanced to ask Krall once if it was the water, or what, on Vancouver Island, that had produced a small handful of internationally recognized musicians. “Not the water, the record store,” she answered. I suspect there’s more to it than that. My friend, Shawn, who died last week of alcoholism at 47 was every bit the musician of either Swift or Krall and would have died a pauper but for a Navy pension.

I played at his funeral yesterday, in front of a dozen top-shelf musicians who’d been in his bands. None of them is well heeled. And Shawn did not have the good fortune to marry well at a young age. Krall was nearing 40 when she married Elvis Costello.

Any aspiring music major should have to watch the movie “The Fabulous Baker Boys.” Even Michelle Pfeiffer’s character, who saved the act, walks off into an uncertain future in the last scene of the movie. A onetime girlfriend of mine, who subbed for both her parents in the viola section of the Seattle Symphony, walked out of a half-time seat and our relationship to study classics in Greece. Now there’s a money maker. All she had to do was wait for her father to retire from the section and she could have had his seat. And the Symphony has their own union local.

Because of a broad education, I’ve worked at a variety of jobs including music, and, excepting music have been well paid. Sometimes my nieces and nephews asked for career advice. “Roll with the punches,” I’ve said. Set yourselves up to be able to adapt to change; “computer programming won’t last forever,” I’ve said. Lately, I’ve realized, that’s a tall order. And now there's AI.

Everyone wants their plumbing to work. That said, everyone's just as eager to have their heating and air in working order - at that stuff busts more often than plumbing.

For a residential property manager, plumbing issues can make the job a real craptastic experience.

[UncleBeer]

Everyone's probably seen my side-rant concerning university tuba studios, but I'm happy to repeat it. This is a recent photo of the UNT tuba studio. Are they gonna be band directors? Does the area/state/country have that many band director openings? How many will win playing jobs? Maybe one or two, maybe.

Even at a large university with pressure to recruit, I think it's unconscionable to encourage that many kids to go into professional music. It's the blueprint for poorly-planned lives and heartbreak.

UNT.jpg (108.13 KiB) Viewed 352 times

[prodigal]

Funny, this came up on my feed this morning:



I'm a fan of the OAE.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Everyone's probably seen my side-rant concerning university tuba studios, but I'm happy to repeat it. This is a recent photo of the UNT tuba studio. Are they gonna be band directors? Does the area/state/country have that many band director openings? How many will win playing jobs? Maybe one or two, maybe.

Even at a large university with pressure to recruit, I think it's unconscionable to encourage that many kids to go into professional music. It's the blueprint for poorly-planned lives and heartbreak.

You are aware there are many careers in music other than orchestral jobs and teaching band, right?

[prodigal]

Yes, but I believe the question is about the reliability and somewhat economic gains of careers in the arts.

Being a HS Orchestra teacher is far better than a band director, NO MARCHING BAND!!!!! (Well at least I get to work with my children's marching band which is not where I teach, so it is hard to escape, but it's better to help than be on the hook.)

[bloke]

Everyone's probably seen my side-rant concerning university tuba studios, but I'm happy to repeat it. This is a recent photo of the UNT tuba studio. Are they gonna be band directors? Does the area/state/country have that many band director openings? How many will win playing jobs? Maybe one or two, maybe.

Even at a large university with pressure to recruit, I think it's unconscionable to encourage that many kids to go into professional music. It's the blueprint for poorly-planned lives and heartbreak.



UNT.jpg

Yes, and to coerce hapless taxpayers into paying most of the cost of this is just as unconscionable.. Tuition is to "higher" education as ticket sales are to symphony orchestras. It only covers a small percentage of the cost.
Their parents probably only barely have enough savings (if they even do) to cover their own retirement costs. They're not going to be able to afford to feed/clothe/house whatever percentage of this group will end up living with them for the next thirty years.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Yes, and to coerce the hapless taxpayers into paying most of the cost of this is just as unconscionable.. Tuition is to "higher" education as ticket sales are to symphony orchestras. It only covers a small percentage of the cost.

What's hilarious about this comment is you are sooooo close to getting it. Our society values the existence of music education and symphony orchestras in our society, even if those ventures can't stand on their own financially through tuition/ticket sales alone. That belief in the value is expressed through donor and government contributions for both organizations. The disparity between revenue sources isn't a bug, it's a feature.

Even if you personally don't value those endeavors, you still benefit heavily from them existing, as does society as a whole.

[prodigal]

My youngest son, the aspiring tuba player, wants to be an electrician.

He'll probably have nicer tubas than Dad someday.

[bloke]

...says the democracy advocate - who's not willing to consider putting any of this to a pure democratic vote (as the word democracy is almost never used to mean the definition of democracy but is actually used as a modern day euphemism for various types of coercion).

To the monitors: I'm not referring to any political parties parties, I'm referring to the definition of the words "democratic" and "democracy" as coined in ancient Greece, as they relate to modern views of American society, and how it should function.

Let's put some coffee cans at the checkout stands of all the businesses in America as well as a checkbox for everything that we pay for by credit card, allow people to contribute a percentage - or a simple specific amount of money - to these enterprises, let's see how much free will/democratic support they get. ("Yes bloke, but - being an elitist - I know that the ignorant and stupid masses cannot be allowed to be able to decide such matters.")

Moreover, those who claim they are for one man one vote (democracy) are actually elitists who would panic were that actually the case (as it could potentially relate to everything).

"We" didn't decide that these things are important. Rather, such things are foisted on us (things which - originally - were 100% privately funded) and "we" don't have much of any effective way to un-foist them. In the meantime, "the masses" are living paycheck to paycheck and - even when the cost of their vehicle fuel spikes a dollar or so a gallon (as it did around 2021-2022, and has yet again) it throws a complete monkey wrench in the personal finances of the masses, as they are taxed so heavily for so many things that benefit them in so few (if any) ways.

I'm completely reminded of the spectator sports fans who all believe it's wonderful for the rest of us (the overwhelming majority) to be forced into subsidizing professional sports teams via building them "free" stadiums and arenas (as well as other types of subsidies), when the rest of us have really no other choice other than to move out of those cities and counties as the only way that we can manage to avoid to having our pockets picked for things about which we are not in the least interested (that we are told by our rulers that having these professional sports teams in our cities is of great benefit to our cities).

Let's zoom back in to the specifics of (imported European culture) symphony orchestras and how "we as a society" believe that we should prop them up (rather than only those interested in them existing and listening to them doing so). It seems logical to me that those who actually show up and buy tickets to hear them play would be the most enthusiastic towards these beliefs... but consider what has happened to (even) the sophistication of these performances (which traditionally - whereby culture and tradition are very closely intertwined - began with wonderful "classic" opera overtures). Mostly, these have been replaced with "sound effects" pieces, which do little more than serve as lost time to stare at the ads in the programs. .... When I was up in Pittsburgh a couple of weeks ago and my son-in-law took me to to hear him and the orchestra play Tchaikovsky 6 and Beethoven's first piano concerto, I was looking at the complete list of pieces and (on the way there) asked him about the first one. I asked him if it was any good and his response (and yes he played on that piece) was "I really have no idea."

To claim that "society" (again: coerced into funding things) values and benefits from something (when only a very small portion of society values something or is even exposed to it, whether it's spectator sports or spectator European-style music ensemble concerts) is elitist - in the same way that football and basketball fans are elitist by expecting the rest of us to subsidize their pastimes. Maybe it's perfectly fine to be elitist - in the mind of an elitist - but why not admit to elitism (if elitism is such a virtue)?

OK ...If various endeavors are to be subsidized, how about restricting their subsidization to ~local~ subsidization, so that individuals have the option of - at the very least - voting with their feet?

A problem - as Carl demonstrated so demonstrably - is that forced subsidization of training for a microscopic number of jobs to entertain a microscopic segment of society, has become elephantine, and not only statewide but nationwide, and there's no longer any way to vote with one's feet. Another problem (as someone - who makes a point of disagreeing with just about everything that I put forth - openly stated) is that 18-year-olds' brains are still the brains of children, and asking them to choose most anything (much less a profession) will often result in childish decisions.
hey...
I don't deny at all that - at age 15 - I was a child and thought as a child, but my own motivation for developing a marketable solo guitar multiple set repertoire was to supply myself with spending money (sneaking off to play cocktail parties, as well as - not sneaking off - playing at USO Club receptions) as well as money to save up to buy a car (as my father - very wisely - didn't dispense money to us). I can't help but believe that a very large percentage of 18-year-olds who decide to study music (with little consideration of whether there might be a job available or whether they would measure up enough to he hired for one of the few jobs which might be available) think much of anything about money, whereas my prime motivation for becoming a markable musician at age 15 was - actually - money. Ironically, having the more adult motivation (for becoming a marketable guitarist) of being able to fund myself and my interests - without relying on my parents, I'm wondering if that more adult motivation is what pushed me to actually bringing my guitar playing up to a marketable level (and yes: I got a private sector job - at a car wash, 24 hours each weekend - to buy my high quality guitar, as well as to pay for lessons. "Society" (and nor a collegium of elitists) didn't decide that it needed another guitar player, and I didn't receive any subsidy from "society" to help me achieve that).

yeah... I'm really funny... because I "almost" get it, don't I?
... I'm laughing at myself uncontrollably.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

I'm happy that more college students today have access to better forms of music education that they would have had access to in previous decades. I don't think music education should only be accessible to the few, wealthy elite, and I'm happy that my tax payer dollars are being spent to enrich people's lives through culture.

[bloke]

When I hear people claiming how happy they are that "my taxpayer dollars are blah blah" I rarely hear them discuss giving additionally of their own free will (hey, this orchestra employs me to work in the office, but it's such an important thing for society to have, that I believe I'll just contribute a couple thousand dollars a year to it as a tax deductible donation) or suggesting that others (who couldn't possibly be less interested in Bach, much less Revueltas, much less sound effects pieces) should be allowed to abstain from having their taxpayer dollars confiscated and redistributed to other individuals to subsidize those other individuals' interests and endeavors - when they themselves have their own interests and endeavors, or may very well be struggling to simply pay their high tax bills.

It also seems pretty disingenuous to me to advocate for the confiscation of funds towards specific individual or group endeavors, while being a monetary beneficiary of that selfsane confiscation.

I suppose the football stadium/basketball arena analogy (along with - as I didn't point out earlier - academia very heavily subsidizing - actually sponsoring and underwriting - AAA sports) would be completely lost to those who only look towards that confiscation which specifically benefits themselves, in much the same way that professional athletes and team owners obviously would be completely in favor of the confiscation of individuals' earnings and savings (regardless of the level of interest that any individual might have in professional spectator sports) to very heavily subsidize their endeavors as well as subsidizing very the small percentage of people who attend their events.

There's an "ensemble" that I have come to admire more than just about any others. It's a group of filthy/greasy and somewhat frantic (yet very capable and kind) men who work at a place called Star Auto Repair. They repair cars and trucks for working class people and charge prices that allow such people to pay their bills without being confiscatory. They don't receive any government subsidies, but live off of the real benefit that they bring to people's lives. My son desperately needed a water pump this week, because he finally got it job working at a Sonic which is about 35 miles away. The people at Star were so incredibly nice to him. They charged $70 + $30 + $15 for the water pump, the serpentine belt, and the coolant for his 20-year-old Camry, and a couple hundred dollars to take off that which was broken and install the new. Being in the private sector - and our own savings having been heavily valued by money printing - as well as depleted during the economic shutdown, we really don't have $400 or $500 to pay some towing company (even though there's one only a mile away who might give us a special price like $300). We got his car up on our own 16-ft trailer with a foot to spare front to back and 6 inches to spare left to right) and towed it there ourselves. We felt really fortunate that - even though our own resources have been greatly depleted - that we were able to get through this crisis in a way that we could afford to manage.

Luxuries are nice, but coercing people - who struggle to supply themselves with essentials - to supply luxuries and nice-to-haves to others - isn't very nice.

[Schlitzz]

Well, here we are again.

[Bassboner]

There are a couple of things you learn at music school that are valuable for a career in music performance:
- private lessons are very necessary
- music theory - eventually you will need this, and its important
- sight singing is basic musical training and a necessary skill
- ear training to recognize intervals and do simple transcription
- basic piano - as much as you might love or hate it, piano is an essential skill
- some sort of arranging class, often in conjunction with theory - basic Bach 4 part is a good place to start
- maybe training on a double, which you can treat as a secondary private lesson
- The most important training you get in music school is how to work in ensembles. You can get this through groups you don't pay for an even groups that pay you. Orchestra, band, chamber music, jazz/pop
- Improvisation - it's hard to imagine a career in any kind of music without knowing how to improvise

Music history is a good set of knowledge to have, but generally just goes toward settling niggling arguments between purists. You can get what you need to know by listening to public radio. If you know how to pronounce Mstislav Rostropovich you're way ahead of most people.

You can get all of this without signing up for 4 years.

If you want to teach music, the degree is necessary, maybe even advanced degrees.

I got 2 years of a music education, and then played in the Navy fleet bands, switched to engineering, and went on my merry way. I still play, but I can afford whatever horn I want. I personally wouldn't go the music school route again, knowing what I know now. I'd take lessons from the best teacher I could find, and gig, gig, gig. Say yes to even crappy gigs.

But as I've said before in a similar thread, music is a better hobby than a job that you have to depend on for money. I'd recommend you treat it that way unless you and those around you are convinced that you are some sort of extraordinary talent. Forget the "you can do anything you want to do if you just set your mind to it" crap. It's true, but what they don't tell you is how much it's going to cost you to be so single-minded, and not just monetarily.

[UncleBeer]

- Improvisation - it's hard to imagine a career in any kind of music without knowing how to improvise

Heh. See that sea of greenshirts I posted above? I'd wager not one of them could play you a convincing chorus of the blues (or any standard) in any key. It's all excerpts and solo lit.