Finding a mouthpiece for a French horn doubler

[ThirdHorn]

So I have been asked to fill in on tuba in a youth band, and up to now I've been playing an old B&H Regent Eb equipped with a Kosikup mouthpiece of similar vintage. A tuba this tiny leaves something to be desired in terms of fullness of sound, so to improve on this I found a really nice Wessex Bombino in the band storage room. The issue comes with finding a mouthpiece to use with the Bombino, as the small shank Kosikup does not fit into the receiver.

The mouthpiece supplied with the Wessex is unplayable for me. I've measured it at 33 mm across, wheras the Kosikup is more like 28 mm. As a French horn player, there's no issue with getting down in register on a small mouthpiece (as this is what we French horn players regularly do on much tinier stuff), so for now I've wrapped some electrical tape around the shank of the Kosikup and intend to use it like that if I can't come up with anything better. However, are there other options for replacing the Kosikup with something more modern? I note that in addition to the narrow inner diameter, it also has a quite wide rim and a decent bore. Perusing some specification sheets of a few suppliers, I notice there is a Bach 32E with 29.5 mm inner diameter, but are there also other options? Would some larger ((contra)bass) trombone mouthpieces fit the receiver, or any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

[1 Ton Tommy]

I double on trumpet and have used a Mirafone C3 for many years on my 5/8 bore Martin. The modern catalogue number is TU21. I also use this piece on my 3/4 bore Willson but with a bigger shank. That said, I've begun using the Martin 33 that came with the Mammoth on it as the intonation is better from partial to partial. I don't know what a modern equivalent might be.

The shallow-cup trumpet peices seem to go sharp in the upper register compared with my go-to Bach 1-1/2 C I use for symphony duty. That seems to be true of Tuba mouthpieces too, though it could be just me.

[York-aholic]

@hbcrandy Perhaps you might have some insight to share?

[Mary Ann]

As a still playing horn player, what I suggest is that you find a 30mm or 31mm tuba cup. I've never played a Bombino and have no reference as to what it "likes." I use a Wick 5 on my Eb. For a newbie, the 32E might be a place to start though.
As a newbie to a tuba-sized cup -- being able to play it isn't going to happen right away. You will have to get used to both the width of the aperture and the amount of air required. "It isn't a horn."
I can go back and forth easily but it did not happen overnight. And once you get used to the air requirements of a tuba, you might be surprised how that helps your horn playing.

[bloke]

I have a mostly trombone playing friend who had to teach horn at his state university (in an isolated portion of his state) until they could find a horn teacher.

He did the opposite:

He found this weird horn mouthpiece with a cup sort of like a really small trombone cup and worked his way down to a legitimate horn mouthpiece, knowing that it would play a horn better than that thing that he started with.

Maybe start with a horn mouthpiece with tape on the shank or something (??) work your way up to the size range of mouthpiece that works best with that instrument.

I believe all of us can play all sizes of brass mouthpieces. The fact that we're not good at playing sizes other than those to which.we are accustomed doesn't mean that we can't eventually.

I'm not "talking down". I'm encouraging.

[Mary Ann]

I did work my way up over time; euph then tuba. The problem high brass players have with large cups is that their buzz width is the same as it is in the small cup, as is their air supply. Those two have to adjust. It has been hilarious to hear a high level horn player take a toot on my tuba (years ago, but clear memory) and get this tiny little horn-like sound out of it. Clear buzz but tiny-width buzz.

[ThirdHorn]

Thank you all for your input. As mentioned: getting the lips to vibrate with the proper aperture size for the instrument is somewhat important for proper sound production. Coming from French horn (and also cornet and tenor horn in my brass band past), learning to relax a few of those muscles that are otherwise needed when playing smaller instruments takes a few practice sessions to get right.

I was able to get my hands on a Bach 25 clone (Gewa-cup 25), which nominally has a diameter of 30.6 mm. Anything smaller could not be found locally, and I wonder if the Bach tuba pieces work the same way as their mouthpieces for horn: larger than their nominal measurement. Anyway, it sits right in the middle of my two other options, both in terms of inner diameter and bore (Kosikup and Wessex Mount Vernon - which I suspect is also a Bach clone). After some play testing I have concluded that it is absolutely the largest I can handle at the moment.

The low register with the 4th valve is a mess, though, and for some reason C natural in the staff (bass clef notation) is really awkward and difficult to hit in the center, but that was the case also on the B&H Regent, and regardless of mouthpiece choice. Is that a known troublesome note on E flat tubas? It seems to require some kind of intermediate lip tension which is difficult to fine-tune. Ah well, it's in the middle of the "break register" on French horn as well, so... More practice, I guess...

[York-aholic]

As a still playing horn player,.

I’m sorry @Mary Ann!

My early onset senility strikes again!

[Mary Ann]

Not sure what that apology is for -- my own encroaching senility remembers nothing needing one.

[Mary Ann]

The low register with the 4th valve is a mess, though, and for some reason C natural in the staff (bass clef notation) is really awkward and difficult to hit in the center, but that was the case also on the B&H Regent, and regardless of mouthpiece choice. Is that a known troublesome note on E flat tubas? It seems to require some kind of intermediate lip tension which is difficult to fine-tune. Ah well, it's in the middle of the "break register" on French horn as well, so... More practice, I guess...

Generally the "most" troublesome note would be Bb below the staff (if it is a rotary tuba) -- roughly equivalent to the notorious low C on a rotary F tuba.

If it's a piston tuba -- could be your uneducated chops, could be an instrument with a problem.

Because I am not a pro but a reasonably intelligent and successful self-taught -- I will PM you what I suggest you do for the low register, which has worked gangbusters for me once I figured it out (and it works on all brass for me; it's just that with a horn-sized cup, it is far less obvious what you have to do, and there is more than one way to do it, too.) I just don't want to get into back-and-forth with the experts, and you're perfectly welcome to give it a go or not.

[ThirdHorn]

Because I am not a pro but a reasonably intelligent and successful self-taught -- I will PM you what I suggest you do for the low register, which has worked gangbusters for me once I figured it out (and it works on all brass for me; it's just that with a horn-sized cup, it is far less obvious what you have to do, and there is more than one way to do it, too.) I just don't want to get into back-and-forth with the experts, and you're perfectly welcome to give it a go or not.

Much appreciated! Apparently, I've not been here long enough to send any PM's yet, but I will test your advice. So far I actually find it much easier to combine tuba and French horn, compared to trumpet and French horn. Initially that surprised me, but after some thought I wonder if that is because trumpet and French horn requires the use of the same muscles in a different way, whereas tuba playing involves different muscles altogether. Or maybe that's a silly theory?

[Mary Ann]

I dunno. I'm a low horn player and trumpet high range is not anything I've ever been able to do. I think I need a wider cup to function up high for some reason. My horn high range pretty much stops at A below high C, and my tuba range goes almost that high (but not claiming I can play tunes up there, just that I can hit the notes. I'm not Chris Olka!!)

[Chris Mayer]

Hi Thirdhorn,

I can not advice but offer some experience instead. After 32 years of tuba playing (PT and Klier Models 32-33 mm rim diameter), I switched to french horn in 2012. It took me almost 1 year to get accustomed to the much smaller mouthpiece rim of the french horn (I played 17,5 mm). The transfer was very successful. I played horn in a local student symphony orchestra playing horn and wager tuba in pieces like Mahler 1, Alpine Symphonie, Brahms, Grieg, some Wagner or Bruckner 8. When I occasionally (2-3 time in 12 years) put a tuba mouthpiece to my lips it felt like putting my head into a bucket . In 2024, year of the tuba , I moved back to tuba. Within 2 months I played again tuba in our local community band. I felt, that my tone on the tuba was much clearer and clean, and full, warm, powerful as if I would have never moved away from tuba for 12 years. I also played some bass trombone which was also no issue in changing between the tuba and trombone. Now here is the experience: Then I tried my french horn with just a 18,5 mm mouthpiece and after 15-20 min, I was back on the french horn, sound and intonation wise. I was very very surprised about this. Now, although I play Tuba and bass trombone, I regularly also play french Horn and would not be afraid to play some pieces in front of an audience. Having spoken to a music friend who is also doctor, he explained, that my lip muscles and all the neuronal connections have now been trained for the rims of each instruments. My brain recognises the mouthpiece haptically and automatically "loads" the right muscle tensions. Especially the horn playing for 12 years has helped to develop the muscles in the center and at the tip of my lips, so at the end I have the stability for a smaller mouthpiece (horn) and the relaxation for a bigger mouthpiece (tuba), which interesting helps hight and low on both instruments. I do not know how common this flexibility is, but I can change from tuba to Horn in a Minute (have done this in a concert playing some horn solos in a piece between the tuba parts).

- I have no advice on a mouthpiece diameter which fits your french horn. I have felt every mm difference and could not have imagined at all before 2024 to play horn and tuba

- Maybe over a longer period playing both instruments in parallel, one could develop the same embouchure and muscle flexibility as I have experienced without sacrifying sound and intonation

- fun facts: I have lost my break between b and c in the stuff on the tuba, I play now a 31 mm Klier 7A on my Alex DoubleTuba 166 and a 37 mm mouthpiece on my older Alex 164 (an old model 37 Alexander mouthpiece nickel silver and silver coated what a sound despite the "smaller" bore of 8 mm and the quite shallow cup.

best
Chris