Quintet Musings

[the elephant]

I like my Yamaha 826 so much that I am considering using it in quintet. I am just pondering the appropriateness of its size. I don’t think I’d like it in the MSO BQ, but my other quintet plays with drums or percussion most of the time, and much of that work is walking bass below the staff.

Lots to consider.

My wife’s quintet is playing right now and the tubist is on a rotary MrP CC and sounds just fine to me. On some of it that tuba works much better than any F, even my big-assed Kurath.

I sub with them later in the summer, and I may work up the folder on the Yamaha, or at least on my homemade 186.

Again: Lots to consider…

Comments?

[the elephant]

Hmm… I heard two tunes where - to me - it was too much. Don’t want to lug two horns to a quintet gig.

Hmm…

Hmm…

Hmm…

[the elephant]

(Meaning his Mr P CC…)

[Mary Ann]

Could be he just needs to hear recordings because he can't tell from where he's sitting that it's a bit heavy. A bit politically tricky to suggest that though. Maybe --- "Hey, you guys sound SO good how about I record you so you can hear yourselves?"

[bloke]

This tuba discussion thing has been around for so long that we've all repeated our own opinions over and over...

If I'm playing the quintet job where almost all the music is stuff that reduced from large ensemble and most everything I'm going to be playing is "bass lines", I'll be bringing the 32-inch tall 11/16 inch bore Holton B flat tuba that I put together. (I guess this is mostly weddings, graduations, and funerals.)

The Yamaha 826 is a very facile instrument - similar in technical accessibility and intonation characteristics to the 5450 that I owned in the past. That C Buescher helicon that I used to own was actually a little bit more facile yet (great intonation, easy to reach 1 3 and 4 slides, interesting sound).
Had I owned some sort of super-duper E-flat tuba (that nicest JP that I drool over but don't need, as an example), I probably would have used that to play the Malcolm Arnold in a recital that I recall (though they didn't exist at that time), but - at that time - the best choice instrument to play that piece in a faculty quintet recital was that C helicon (nothing to do with all the part being any sort of transcription of a large ensemble work, but simply the way it laid on the instrument, in the cleanliness at which I could pop out those fast arpeggios in the last movement, as well as those two long fast runs).

I always have fun playing my darn good recording bell 68-year-old Besson 3 + 1 E flat in small jazz combos, but I sort of wish that I played enough different types of music that I could justify owning one of those JP E flats as well. Speaking of all of us having expressed the same opinions over and over, most by now know my opinion of having plenty of tubas, yet avoiding getting carried away by owning too many tubas. At this point, everything I own is getting used often enough to keep it, and not sell it.

I dragged three things to that John Williams concert (as I've mentioned two or three times...)
How would the fourth trombone part of Raiders (range up to g above the staff, I'm thinking) sounded on Fat Bastard (whereby it was easy-peasy on my F cimbasso?) How dicey would it have been -:even on my F tuba?... and the quality of the sound, as it's a trombone part...?? Of the instruments I own, which one would have been better than my F tuba for "Jaws"? In regards to most of the blockbuster John Williams main titles, what's better for those than a huge easily-played-in-tune and facile "Jollywood" BB-flat tuba?

At this point, every time I play a C instrument it feels and sounds funny to me. I guess I've recovered from my 50 year detour.

That said (and I expect to collect spitballs from saying this), having recently played a C MRP and a recently-built C Wyvern, I believe (were I coerced into owning and using one or the other of those) I believe I would choose (at least, in regards to that particular recently built Wyvern, and you can forget the "for the money" qualifying prepositional phrase). I preferred recently built Wyvern over the MRP.

I've worked on and played Wyvern tubas made several years ago, and personally judged early ones to have been consistently wretched... amazing improvement

prominent/mandatory-for-the-piece-of-,music MUTED tuba...??
That's going to be my smaller B-flat with the regular size 206 aluminum Humes & Berg or my F tuba with the same mute.
Muted 6/4 tuba sucks...and you don't need to tell me, "but bloke, this XYZ mute is..." ...That band director band concert that I'm playing next Monday features a prominent muted section in one movement of one of the pieces. There's a 6/4 C guy who is muting and sounds not so good, and there's a 5/4 C guy who's muted and sounds good. That's plenty of good and not as good muted sound, so I'm taceting during that entire passage, rather than bringing a mute.

...my F tuba?
as can be verified by some, "God's F tuba"

[Bassboner]

I'm not qualified to talk about many things on this forum, but tuba in a quintet is one of my pet topics. I'm of the opinion that you can make almost anything work. BUT, I know that horn wouldn't work in my quintet. We get by mostly on 4/4 Ebs and 3/4 Bbs or Cs. Since Easter, we have been in a wedding prep mode, so a lot of cheesy love songs. I some times find my self wanting more bottom, but everything is scaled back and on the bright side in this group. I can only dream about playing in a group where a 6/4 would work, but that would be a lot more work for me trying to keep up.

There's another group in this area that has a good player on an 822 (4/4 F) that works really well. A big C would overpower most groups in most situations, and it would require so much restraint on the part of the player that it might not be worth the benefits.

I think the venue gets overlooked sometimes as a source of sound. As a quintet leader, I prefer to have a powerful player on a small tuba in a big room to cover most of the situations we come up against. A couple of the weddings we have coming up are outside gigs - no gazebo - a lot of tuba sound just goes straight up, up and away. Our tuba player had a big recording bell Bb, but got rid of it because it looked pretty silly with a brass quintet. But now on the 184, sometimes we wish for a little bit of that oomph back.

More to your situation, if you have to play over drums and you're mostly walking, I'm sure you can control it enough to fit in appropriately. The big horn sounds better walking than a small horn, and outside gigs on the bigger ax will definitely sound better. If you're in a big boomy room, the big horn is probably too much, regardless of how much you restrain it. The proof is in the pudding. You don't really know until you hear it.

[Rick Denney]

I’ve used everything from a Yamaha 621 to my Hirsbrunner 193 in quintet. I don’t think I’ve ever used the Holton, but at times I’ve wanted to. The big tuba was useful for jazzy bass lines mostly below the staff. The 621 is versatile but has a ceiling above which it will not go, and playing louder makes it go trombone-like. It works very well for bass trombone quintet arrangements. I have used a 184 Bb when I needed an F tuba sound but in the low range where F tubas are harder to manage. I’ve recently used a 186, and it works about as well as anything for music newer than the early Baroque.

Sam Pilafian played a M-W 37 with the Empire Brass, and a Yamaha 621 (#7 of that series) with the Boston Brass. His explanation was the size of the sound produced by the whole ensemble.

Mike Sanders played a quintet recital with his Yorkbrunner because he thought his Symphonie F was too light but he didn’t own a smaller C. It sounded a bit tubby in that context, but only for bits and pieces of the music.

So, for me it depends on 1.) the sound and power of the group, and 2.) the nature of the music.

Rick “who has absolutely carried two tubas to quintet gigs” Denney

[bloke]

quintet:

euphonium, cimbasso, F tuba, medium size contrabass tuba...
...depending on the music.

I haven't used the euphonium all that often, but I've used it for things like Tony Plog, Ingof Dahl, David Sampson, and some other artsy "bass trombone or tuba" types of composers which would be fine played on bass trombone, perhaps a little woofy played on F tuba, but a great compromise played on euphonium (with an extra large mouthpiece).

I really like using the F cimbasso in a brass quintet playing any Renaissance music, but I'm not going to drag it along to play one Renaissance piece out of seven to total pieces...I would bring it to play three, and if the parking is pretty close to the stage door.

F tuba is my default brass quintet instrument, when the tuba is a "voice" but not delegated to just playing a bunch of bass lines.

I've already stated that I use my smaller B-flat tuba in brass quintets when it's large ensemble music transcribed for quintet - such as weddings, funerals, and graduations.

I just don't see myself using Fat Bastard in a brass quintet, unless it's with an organ.

[tclements]

I have been playing chamber music now for over 50 years. Coaching and directing the Brass Chamber Music Workshop (https://www.humboldt.edu/brass-chamber-music-workshop) since 1982, I have some definite (albeit highly opinionated) thoughts about tuba gear in chamber music. So, without further ado, here goes:

I carry a 4/4 CC and a 4/4 F to each gig. The CC is good for almost everything, especially if you do a lot of jazzy, popsy kinds of things where you have to play bass lines. The F's just don't have the roundness and depth of sound when one plays bass lines. And since you are balancing 4 other brass, the 4/4 CC will make PLENTY of sound, without being too unfocused or too broad a sound.

Yep, Gene sounds great in the Chicago BQ with the Yorks, but we are not Gene.

If I can carry only one tuba, a 4/4 CC (or BBb) will do just fine. The F's just don't have the flexibility.

My 2¢. Discuss:

[Charlie C Chowder]

Being a hack as a musician, and not playing in any groups that gets paid, big or small, I do not understand where size matters in the selection of a tuba. Range needed okay, but I try blend in with the groups volume and not over power. So what am I missing?

CCC

[iiipopes]

I use my Jupiter 4/4 JTU1110 BBb in my quintet. No issues. Well received.

[dp]

Wade:
Your 186.
-dp

[Bob Kolada]

I prefer bass trombone and Eb tuba, but then I prefer that for just about everything except giant Bb tuba music. My last year or so in the Army I played a Miraphone 1281 Petrouchka for everything except marching, I thought it worked pretty well in brass quintet even though the one we got wasn't as good as the one I played at the Army tuba conference. I can absolutely see the viability of a small contrabass for walking bass and Canadian Brass stuff but would rather have the chainsaw as my second instrument to haul around. btw, taking a tuba and a bass trombone on the bus is a hellacious experience. -100/10, do not recommend.

quintet:

euphonium, cimbasso, F tuba, medium size contrabass tuba...
...depending on the music.

I haven't used the euphonium all that often, but I've used it for things like Tony Plog, Ingof Dahl, David Sampson, and some other artsy "bass trombone or tuba" types of composers which would be fine played on bass trombone, perhaps a little woofy played on F tuba, but a great compromise played on euphonium (with an extra large mouthpiece).

I really like using the F cimbasso in a brass quintet playing any Renaissance music, but I'm not going to drag it along to play one Renaissance piece out of seven to total pieces...I would bring it to play three, and if the parking is pretty close to the stage door.

F tuba is my default brass quintet instrument, when the tuba is a "voice" but not delegated to just playing a bunch of bass lines.

I've already stated that I use my smaller B-flat tuba in brass quintets when it's large ensemble music transcribed for quintet - such as weddings, funerals, and graduations.

I just don't see myself using Fat Bastard in a brass quintet, unless it's with an organ.

That's an interesting idea. I would like to see euph on the 4th part in a brass quartet more often, kind of a mini brass quintet sound. I picked up an earlier Chinese comp euph years ago from a band director who upgraded to a Willson, I struggled with the comp range for a while until it clicked. It's really a blast to mess around with a contrabass trombone mouthpiece, I wish I had more options to use it in a bass role. The best low range euph I've ever played was a now discontinued Miraphone, I think a 1258, I played at WWBW about 20 years ago; it had a better low range than half the F tubas in the room.

[bloke]

M-W euphoniums are pretty rare, but they're huge.
People think they play badly out of tune, because the outside slides are short, and all the slides need to be pulled a good bit vs. the typical euphonium - whereby typically most of the slides are in nearly all the way with most makes. I own one of these. It needed to have the third compensating slide loop lengthened by 4 in as well, which is quite an error, but that was easy to address.

About all I really have to do to play that thing in tune is to play the two lower g pitches with third valve and I have to lip up first valve c just like with a typical B flat tuba.

I think the biggest challenge of using a euphonium as the bass instrument in a brass group is that there a tendency to play them out of tune and hide that with vibrato, and that doesn't work when you're playing the bass. (I probably just triggered 75 people.)

[York-aholic]

M-W euphoniums are pretty rare, but they're huge.
People think they play badly out of tune, because the outside slides are short, and all the slides need to be pulled a good bit vs. the typical euphonium - whereby typically most of the slides are in nearly all the way with most makes. I own one of these. It needed to have the third compensating slide loop lengthened by 4 in as well, which is quite an error, but that was easy to address.

About all I really have to do to play that thing in tune is to play the two lower g pitches with third valve and I have to lip up first valve c just like with a typical B flat tuba.

I think the biggest challenge of using a euphonium as the bass instrument in a brass group is that there a tendency to play them out of tune and hide that with vibrato, and that doesn't work when you're playing the bass. (I'll probably just triggered 75 people.)

Wait! All I need to do then is to start playing with a lot of vibrato?

Best playing tip EVER!