Sad news

[Mary Ann]

I get you -- I repeatedly tell people I am glad I am the age I am (even if I live another ten years, it's not 40 or 50 years) and that I don't have grandchildren I have to have this kind of worry about. We would never have thought, 30 years ago, that we'd be where we are.

[ParLawGod]

The story also said,

Conn Selmer sent 19 News a statement after our story aired, saying they haven’t made a final decision yet.
…
The announcement was made on the first day of contract negotiations between the UAW and Conn Selmer, Kalman stated.

So maybe some of it is posturing by Conn Selmer.

Its posturing by the union(s) they made the announcement of "the planned move"

Agree, the union immediately brought up China...I suspect to add public pressure.

[jtm]

... Agree, the union immediately brought up China...I suspect to add public pressure.

A local instrument repair shop got an email from Conn-Selmer that included

we’re streamlining our manufacturing processes ... and fostering our Chinese factory

[Three Valves]

This brings up an ongoing dread that I have been trying to digest. As the factories make everything with robots and AI replaces people in the workforce, what are we going to do with everyone?

People need to work.

Also, how do I prepare my children and students for a world where they might not be needed?

This stuff keeps me up at night, at least till I run through a couple of Tuba Concerto second movements to calm my soul down.

You will have nothing and like it!

[prodigal]

This brings up an ongoing dread that I have been trying to digest. As the factories make everything with robots and AI replaces people in the workforce, what are we going to do with everyone?

People need to work.

Also, how do I prepare my children and students for a world where they might not be needed?

This stuff keeps me up at night, at least till I run through a couple of Tuba Concerto second movements to calm my soul down.

You will have nothing and like it!

I'll still have a piece or 20!

[catgrowlB]

This brings up an ongoing dread that I have been trying to digest. As the factories make everything with robots and AI replaces people in the workforce, what are we going to do with everyone?

People need to work.

Also, how do I prepare my children and students for a world where they might not be needed?

This stuff keeps me up at night, at least till I run through a couple of Tuba Concerto second movements to calm my soul down.

We need to make a conscious effort to make everything we do "people-centric". That includes having the right leadership that puts people first.
Robots and AI were originally created to enhance our lives and work, and make it better/easier. If we let it take over everything, we are screwed....

As for Conn-Selmer, most of that blame goes to the top (upper management, like always) at the company and union. You can't be pigheaded about innovation and design, and also expect people to pay more for crappier/more inconsistent instruments over the last 25 years. They could have done things different, even with competition with Chinese brass.

Back when it was UMI (pre-2000/2001), instruments were still made well -- maybe not quite H.N. White, or Elkhart-era Conn, or even Seeburg quality, but close. I'd be fine owning most any good-condition UMI-era tuba or sousa. Conn-Selmer, not so much....

[CooperBayliff]

Sad to see, but as others have pointed out, the stuff coming out of that factory in recent years has been... substantially less than stellar. But it sucks that the conn trombones are likely to go with them, those were still pretty good.

[bloke]

Having been around for quite a while (and very close to so many instruments), it just seems to me that those working in the remaining plants - for quite a few years, now - have been "employees" (who come-and-go), whereby the career "craftsmen" are long-retired and - mostly - deceased.

Not all at once, but I've seen quite a few parts "simplified" so as they can be constructed completely by machines, rather than a person having to have a "hand" in making particular parts (as they did in the past). Other parts (as machines have become so amazing) have been made into one piece (rather than - say - three pieces lead-soldered together). I suppose those particular parts are just as good (or better), but - particularly when some of those models are now being made in a THIRD place (as opposed to where they were originally made) the "tradition/nostalgia" is lost.

[gocsick]

Craftsman are becoming rare... part of the blame is companies... there is no meaningful on the job training anymore for most jobs.. They either expect someone to come with the skills or automate the job away..

Part seems to be employees.. it is rare to find someone who wants to learn.. The place I am spending my sabbatical at is looking for an apprentice tool and die maker to be trained by a true master Craftsman ... the requirements are basically the same as an entry level machinist or recent tech school graduate. Despite paying above market rate it is impossible to interest young people.. They want to babysit CNC machines and load stock and unload parts.. and blame the programmer when something goes wrong.

I didn't know what to think..

[Beervangelist]

A related, but somewhat adjacent question. How viable or vibrant is the market for new horns? I don’t have any knowledge about it, but I’d guess it’d be focused on academic and orchestral/symphonic orgs, which I’d assume are buying less.

As for myself and thinking of individual purchases, I can’t see valuing “new” in this marketplace, versus a vintage instrument in excellent condition.

Not really weighing in on the Conn situation, but it made me curious. It can be hard for the acquisition heavies to figure out how to thrive in a shrinking marketplace.

[Oedipoes]

The problem is that 'we' only look at the price.
'We' don't want to pay the cost of providing a decent income for someone in the US/ Europe to build an instrument.
Same thing for all the other stuff 'we' want to buy as cheap as possible.

I would rather save longer and buy locally made than go quick/ cheap/ Far East, but that's just me...

[bisontuba]

[graybach]

Craftsman are becoming rare... part of the blame is companies... there is no meaningful on the job training anymore for most jobs.. They either expect someone to come with the skills or automate the job away..

Part seems to be employees.. it is rare to find someone who wants to learn.. The place I am spending my sabbatical at is looking for an apprentice tool and die maker to be trained by a true master Craftsman ... the requirements are basically the same as an entry level machinist or recent tech school graduate. Despite paying above market rate it is impossible to interest young people.. They want to babysit CNC machines and load stock and unload parts.. and blame the programmer when something goes wrong.

I didn't know what to think..

I would put most of the blame on the aspiring craftsmen themselves. (Not talking about the employees of Conn-Selmer referenced earlier in this thread. These comments are limited to gocsick’s post).
I just left teaching. Among numerous reasons that I left, one of them was the fact that administration told me that if students don’t want to participate in my class, that’s their prerogative. And I better damn well pass them, anyway. These are children (in my case, some as young as 5) in need of a foundation from the people who are supposed to be the adults guiding them and giving them the foundation to live their lives.
It’s not 100% of schools, but there are a LOT of schools out there handing out grades for doing nothing and telling students that they will still get a passing grade for doing absolutely nothing. Quite a number of schools have a rule that 60% is the minimum grade a student can receive on his or her work, even if they turned nothing in at all. I have seen students literally sleep through classes all year and still get a 60. Pretty sure you’re not getting credit for building 60% of a tuba when you couldn’t be bothered to do anything.
They give them zero incentive to try, and a lot of parents aren’t teaching their child the integrity to do their best and rise above the below-the-floor expectations of lazy administrators and even some teachers that want to be all the kids’ friends and shirk their responsibilities of teaching the kids about life.
There are no consequences for anything. There are kids graduating high school unable to even read (Really. Google it.) because nothing was expected of them.
So doing something highly specialized like precision craftsmanship work might as well be climbing Mount Everest alone in your shorts and t-shirt with no gear.
And the ones who do make it in to do the work expect to be coddled.

[bloke]

I might add that in many cases today's 60% is probably 1960's 40%. Grade inflation charts abound, are widely accepted as real...and this, not even going into schools teaching so many things that aren't so.

[bloke]

I might add that in many cases today's 60% is probably 1960's 40%. Grade inflation charts abound, are widely accepted as real...and this, not even going into schools teaching so many things that aren't so.

Getting back on topic before I start pissing off a bunch of people who don't share my worldview, all of this leads people to focus far too much on self, and far too little on true self-worth and what they actually do to contribute to the overall human experience (this to me being one of the most ironic things as that for which they advocate is the diminished importance of the individual)...
...but in this specific case meaning that (likely) the average generation-whatever person who is employed by a place such as Conn-Selmer doesn't look at it as a career, but rather as an income stream - whereby the worst aspect of receiving this income stream is the hours having to be spent each weekday qualifying themselves for the income stream.

[bisontuba]

All I will add is remember that Matt Walters built a CC tuba ( and a F) for the company, and instead of following what Matt created, they tweaked it and destroyed the design genius that Matt created. God knows where the F ended up ( in pieces...)...
So instead of panning all the workers, I think the 'bean counters' in management deserve a lot of blame. Yes, quality control coming out of that plant is not very good, but instead of reinvesting, trying to improve and generate new models, it was a race to the bottom...
very, very sad ..

[bloke]

I'm going to surprise you and agree with your points.

...but @bisontuba, a little chat with a higher up (high up) in the corporation was had...someone who I'm just about 100% sure shares your socio-political views - and who grew up in Georgia, I'm thinking.

They reported that the union was making demands that are just absolutely impossible for them to meet.

... and (back to the employee side of the problem) there are so many examples of this, reportedly into the several millions:

[Three Valves]

It would be better if the China talk was a ruse/bargaining chip and they just expand production in NC which I suspect is non-union.

[bisontuba]

I would love to see the financials of the Eastlake Division...

[tofu]

Craftsman are becoming rare... part of the blame is companies... there is no meaningful on the job training anymore for most jobs.. They either expect someone to come with the skills or automate the job away..

Part seems to be employees.. it is rare to find someone who wants to learn.. The place I am spending my sabbatical at is looking for an apprentice tool and die maker to be trained by a true master Craftsman ... the requirements are basically the same as an entry level machinist or recent tech school graduate. Despite paying above market rate it is impossible to interest young people.. They want to babysit CNC machines and load stock and unload parts.. and blame the programmer when something goes wrong.

I didn't know what to think..

I would put most of the blame on the aspiring craftsmen themselves. (Not talking about the employees of Conn-Selmer referenced earlier in this thread. These comments are limited to gocsick’s post).
I just left teaching. Among numerous reasons that I left, one of them was the fact that administration told me that if students don’t want to participate in my class, that’s their prerogative. And I better damn well pass them, anyway. These are children (in my case, some as young as 5) in need of a foundation from the people who are supposed to be the adults guiding them and giving them the foundation to live their lives.
It’s not 100% of schools, but there are a LOT of schools out there handing out grades for doing nothing and telling students that they will still get a passing grade for doing absolutely nothing. Quite a number of schools have a rule that 60% is the minimum grade a student can receive on his or her work, even if they turned nothing in at all. I have seen students literally sleep through classes all year and still get a 60. Pretty sure you’re not getting credit for building 60% of a tuba when you couldn’t be bothered to do anything.
They give them zero incentive to try, and a lot of parents aren’t teaching their child the integrity to do their best and rise above the below-the-floor expectations of lazy administrators and even some teachers that want to be all the kids’ friends and shirk their responsibilities of teaching the kids about life.
There are no consequences for anything. There are kids graduating high school unable to even read (Really. Google it.) because nothing was expected of them.
So doing something highly specialized like precision craftsmanship work might as well be climbing Mount Everest alone in your shorts and t-shirt with no gear.
And the ones who do make it in to do the work expect to be coddled.

This was in an article in Newsweek back in November - the school cited here is UC-San Diego. California dropped the SAT requirements I believe. Of course the following really speaks to that and what you are talking about.

“In Fall 2024, the numbers of students placing into Math 2 and 3B surged further, with over 900 students in the combined Math 2 and 3B population,” the report notes. “This represents an alarming 12.5 percent of the incoming first-year class.”
Math 2, once intended to cover high school topics like Algebra I and II, has been redesigned to focus “entirely on elementary and middle school Common Core math subjects (grades 1-8).” A new course, Math 3B, was created to handle high school-level content.
UCSD is now the only UC campus that offers a credit-bearing course designed to remediate elementary and middle school math. Placement test data shows a worsening gap between what students appear qualified for on paper and their actual ability.
“In Fall of 2024, of those who demonstrated math skills not meeting middle school levels, only 6 percent met only the minimum high school course requirement,” the report states. “The other 94 percent went beyond, with 42 percent completing Calculus or Precalculus.”
The report concludes that GPA and course titles have become unreliable predictors of readiness.
“Over 25 percent of the students in Math 2 had a math grade average of 4.0,” the authors write"