C tuba for college

[bloke]

[MiBrassFS]

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[MiBrassFS]

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[bloke]

Maybe (??) someone has already written a thesis (and - even better - perhaps a factual one...and no, I don't possess those facts) at some American university about how American orchestral musicians ended up mostly playing C instruments...even as uncommonly available as they were when this trend began to formulate...

As someone who grew up during the time that manufacturers (eventually, after - simply - developing MORE C models) tried to come up with less-wretched-intonation C instruments, it's been interesting watching the dozens of models come out over the decades, and watching people purchase really difficult to negotiate models which were marketed (even) with full color full page ads, and it's even more interesting to note how those models continue to exist today via secondary manufacturers and Asian copies.

There are a few remarkably in tune models built C length, and/but when there is a B flat version built by the same manufacturer in the same size, the tuning characteristics often (not always) seem to be a little bit easier to manage. I tend to wonder if building instruments C-length (which are just as large as their B-flat counterparts) presents manufacturers with the same challenges the 1920s through 1930s "monster" E-flat tubas, whereby so many of those (built as large as B-flat tubas) presented players with epic tuning and evenness-of-response challenges.

I also wonder if - when building a C instrument as large as a sister B flat - requires that minor (unintentional) factory fluctuations in bow tapers and bows affect C instruments in positive and negative ways more so than B flat, being that they taper is compacted down to only 89% of the length of a comparable B-flat.

C-length trumpets are the same thing... Top professionals buy B flat trumpets and just play them, but top professionals buy C trumpets and pay people to monkey with them trying to get them to respond and play in tune better.

The allure of C instruments (trumpets/tubas) is obvious: With shorter brass instruments, the sound is brighter (though less resonance), and it requires a bit less player precision to produce the correct overtone (approximate pitch).

The 6/4 size gigantic tubas are the most difficult - I believe - to design and build so as they can be played in tune (whether 18-feet B-flat bugles, or 16-feet C bugles), simply because of the tremendous bore expansion, and also because their tremendous size defines them as de facto radiators, whereby it takes forever to get the large end of those instruments up to operating temperature, which affects tuning, and offers forth wonky tuning until one of those instruments is finally warmed up completely... perhaps 5 or 10 minutes, or more - depending on how cool the room is. Typically, the 3rd partial pitch range tends flat with 6/4 instruments (and somewhat with some of the smaller-sized contrabass tubas), until they are fully warmed up to operating temperature, though - sadly, with quite a few 6/4 instruments - the 3rd partial is epically flat - even after the instruments' bell and bow ends are warm. "Most of the few" 6/4-size contrabass instruments that I've found that are the easiest to play in tune have been B-flat instruments, yet quite a few of these (yes, certainly including B-flat length 6/4 instruments) are either consistently out of tune or inconsistently out of tune, just as with the C 6/4-sized instruments. Intonation-wise, the limited-production Yamaha 6/4 C instruments seem to offer the best of any built in C. I suspect it's because they are the most consistently built, and because they are also not quite as huge as some of the others. I don't see this model discussed very much by tuba players, other than telling each other that it costs too much (yet the price of it defines about the same expense as purchasing a typical (nowhere close to the most expensive) consumer/grade professional level bassoon or bowed stringed instrument.

It took me over a decade to move over to B-flat (from C - as I myself was - of course - a "C tuba for college" person), and even longer to acquire a 6/4 B-flat. Miraphone will make the 6/4 model that I purchased (used, thankfully) to order, but it's handmade, and is priced about like an upper intermediate or lowest-end professional American made bassoon (think of the cheapest-of-the-nicest Fox bassoons)...low $2X,XXX plus a hard case. I was attracted to this model (well over a decade ago) because I could see that it could be played in tune without me bending over backwards, and the model seemed really eager to resonate at all volume levels in a really pleasing way. (In contrast, every time I go back and play a really large C instrument (these days, being accustomed to the instrument which I now own/use), I feel like I have to do some sort of extra work to add in what this particular B-flat tuba does on its own. I've always sought the path of least resistance (in other words, I'm LAZY) in all endeavors. I don't seek to find a musical instrument that I have to "master" or "conquer". I look for one that HELPS (ie. an elevator vs. stairs). Primarily, I'm speaking towards intonation, but secondarily, I refer to resonance. Busting my tail to compensate for shortcomings in either or both of those departments is why I've sold most of the instruments that I had in the past. Removing a couple of feet of acoustical expansion from a tuba (ie. a C version of a model vs. a B-flat version of a model) - while the rest of it remains all the same size - (I suspect) defines a tuba as more difficult to encourage to resonate. OTOH, reverse-engineering doesn't seem to work out all that well. Examples are (naming a specific model) creating the model 187 based on the 188, as well as some of the Chinese 6/4 tubas whereby importers have had manufactures "double back" and create B-flat versions based on their C versions (whereby the saggy 3rd partial - once again - rears its ugly head).

The first B-flat instrument I had (which I "built" out of parts - before doubling back and picking up the 6/4 that I had been thinking about for well over a decade) is the souped-up old-school (bell and bows they produced for several decades, and pulled out this tooling one last time for the "Phillips" things) Holton bell-and-bugle (identical bell-and-bow dimensions to the 32-in tall York things of the distant past, except with a King valve set and auxiliary fifth rotor, as has often been done - ie. "King pasting" - by others). This fat/stubby powerhouse lights up the world, and is everything that a King tuba isn't...and I use it up to roughly 40% (??) of the time when I need a contrabass tuba. (Of course, most jobs are contrabass tubas jobs...though my quintet job - this upcoming week - is not.)

Once I spent some time with that homemade Holton B-flat instrument and my really excellent (fewest objections to the C tuba problems of any C tubas I've ever played) C tuba started collecting dust, someone who owned the rare model of 6/4 B flat that I had always been hoping to find used reached out to me and told me that would be glad to sell me theirs and for a price I could afford (read: wow...was I lucky !! ).

That did it for me, and the (undeniably excellent) C tuba disappeared into the hands of someone else.

=================.

When barely an adult, I taught the tuba students at a major university for one year. (no...I'm not cut out for teaching...as I put a lot of energy into endeavors and - when teaching - I expect the student to put in - at least - 10X the energy that I put into teaching them...which is rarely the case.) One of those students was a very talented freshman who checked an (at that time) c. decade-old Meinl-Weston model 20 (B-flat tuba) out from the school to use. That was a GREAT tuba, and he did VERY well with it...so even nearly a half century ago, my eyebrows rose up and I was enlightened in regards to the possibilities of B-flat instruments (as the last B-flat instrument that I had PERSONALLY played was - in the 12th grade - an old King 1240 with ruined valves). Even my college teacher (who owned a C instrument himself - as his only instrument) spoke of a Meinl-Weston model 20 (B-flat) owned by that (a different university, obviously) university which had been stolen out of its cage, how sad it was that it had been stolen, and how he judged it to have played better than (even) the excellent/venerable Miraphone model 186 B-flats that the university also owned...so (though he owned a C instrument) he himself also went the American "C" direction. Curiously, his own teacher owned one of the rare (factory) York 4/4 C instruments (which can be heard on an old l.p., and which obviously presented some serious intonation challenges). It's interesting how tuba players in America - particularly those who engage with classical music - embrace the C tuba culture, many of them admit that there are B-flat instruments that are just as good (and perhaps better) than/as many C instruments, yet they won't personally explore (the best of the) B-flat instruments. Even an American top-professional (who regularly uses both a C 6/4 and a B-flat 6/4) uses a C instrument which typically sells (used) for $30K+ and a B-flat instrument which typically sells (used) for around $4K. As "remarkably adequate" (ie. I'm personally familiar with the model...) as is the 6/4 B-flat, his section-mate bass trombonist (I'm told) prefers the sound/resonance of the B-flat.

[Mary Ann]

I’ll also add that when I was in school working on a MM, there was an undergraduate guy who very openly conflicted with the tuba teacher (not about CC tubas, but just about everything else…) to the point of doing it in front of studio guest artists. That guy sealed his own fate and he pretty much left a skid mark to the door.

Don’t just shop schools, shop teachers.

(I just hate watching people shoot themselves in the foot.)

It's sad when someone has aspirations to do something and then seems to have an agenda of pissing off the very people they need to put in a good word for them later. But it happens, a lot. One wonders if they have any realization of the consequences of their behavior.

[bloke]

(ref. my previous epic post in this thread)

When I decided to leave my university teaching job, I surprised the person (who had recruited me) with this news (towards the end of the spring semester) which resulted in them "chewing me out" regarding a couple of (very petty) *things - which should not have bothered that person at all. Obviously, it would have been far better to - either - notify the university's HR office - perhaps in late May - after having cleared out my townhouse (that I would not be returning), or - simply - to have not returned, and without notification. (After all, I had signed no contract.)
...but - upon having had that "rant" delivered to me (vs. "well then, good luck, son") I knew at that moment that my decision to leave was absolutely the correct decision.

I COULD HAVE functioned in that job (as a studio teacher - again: though I might have seemed to be "unreasonable" to some students - particularly those who would surely show up for private lessons unprepared and obviously with no attempt at preparation), but I KNOW that I could not have continued to work with that particular individual (year-in and decade-out) as a colleague.

Obviously, (re: Mary Ann) I "pissed off" the person who had recruited me (by them failing to be able to keep me there), but I no more needed their recommendation (for anything in particular) than I needed a ball-and-chain strapped to my ankle...and - as they were pissed off that easily (butthurt that was leaving, and insulted that I later chuckled at their teacher's formal wear - see footnote, below), there had-to-have-been/has-to-be others who have noticed the same personality/ego issues with that individual.
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*the main one of which - simply - was chuckling (after the fact) at the outfit that their former DMA-level teacher had chosen to wear when playing a concerto with a band at a conference

...but (maybe...??) PER THE TITLE OF THE THREAD - check out a few B-flat instruments, the next time y'all walk into an elephant room at a tuba shindig.

[arpthark]

I've definitely shed my academic BBb-o-phobia. I'm pretty much an equal-opportunity tuba enjoyer, although I prefer CC -- I'll take the trade-off of 10% less resonance for the benefit of being 10% easier to buzz the centers of pitches, since my practice time these days is virtually nonexistent.

Low notes on a big BBb are definitely way more satisfying to play than on a big CC, though.

[bloke]

I would probably own (or seek to buy - such as Wade's or Mr Jackson's) possibly a C instrument - such as a vintage kick-ass 186, were it not that my 32-in tall Holton B-flat kicks so much ass.

Per my previous post, I would probably use it about a third of the time when I need a contrabass tuba (which is most jobs).

I'm thinking that the very best C instruments are those which aren't stretched out to the maximum size.

Maybe, Mr. Donatelli figured this out the better part of a century before I did...(??)

[MiBrassFS]

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[russiantuba]

Its on my list for article ideas for ITEA on why I don't require CC for my college students, and especially for music education, why I suggest them to stay on BBb, so I won't spoil these.

Yet I have music ed incoming students go out and buy CC tubas without consulting or even asking when BBb tubas would do them much better.


Why aren't the C melody saxophones played much anymore? Same reasons @bloke mentioned.

[arpthark]

Why aren't the C melody saxophones played much anymore? Same reasons @bloke mentioned.

I thought that was more because dance bands or other impromptu groups where the saxophone is expected to read off of a vocalist's lead sheet are much less common today. Although, I can't speak much to their intonation. I'm sure if they were good and/or relevant, somebody would play 'em... anyway.

[bloke]

I don't mean to pick arguments (and I'm probably discussing much more than argument-picking), but I'm pretty sure that C saxophones were mostly used to read not-transposed lead sheets in small ensembles in hotel lobbies, and I'm not sure whether the "particularly for music education" is derogatory, or whether it refers to the fact that all of the tuba students encountered in mass education will be playing B flat tubas... or a bit of both...(??) ... and I'm not attacking, I'm just encouraging clarification.

Just as a reminder, central European orchestras either disallow or heavily discourage the use of C instruments. We can easily compare the US college C-instrument "just because" to their B-flat instrument "just because", but those people are all paid, and they've been at this longer than we have.

[MiBrassFS]

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[arpthark]

BALLAD horn

Thanks, I was wracking my brain for what that thing was called.

They should make horn players switch to this instrument in college, since the bugle tuned a perfect fifth higher than a standard F horn and thus will have a better response:

[bloke]

I own a ballad horn in C.
Most would mistake it for an old mellophone.
It's a good instrument, but I can only play it well with a teeny-tiny Bronx Bach trombone mouthpiece. Basically, it's a really large alto horn mouthpiece built in a trombone mouthpiece blank.

I have its case as well as B-flat and A crooks, but it sucks in B flat and A

[gocsick]

I was an accidental CC player for a long time because when I was a post doc I had no money and a family and needed a tuba... the first decent tuba I found that fit my budget happened to be a 3/4 CC Weril. Dave Fedderly had it at Baltimore Brass and it sat for a long time.. he most have sold it to me at a loss just to get it off the floor. I have no real training, I never played any orchestra rep, only community bands and jazz (mostly Dixieland) on that tuba. So I have absolutely no opinion on the merits of CC vs BBb for the serious tubist.

But . I've been visiting colleges with my son and have been talking with professors. So far 2 out of 8 have said they would require a performance major to switch to CC. One basically said they strongly encourage all their students to get a PT6 or PT6P. The other was at a small conservatory and they said most students audition on CC. The follow up question is "how many of your students are on BBb?" ... The answer has basically been for performance.. all on CC.. for education a small handful on BBb. The reason has boiled down to... people are not winning jobs playing BBbs.

It seems silly to me... but what do I know.

[bloke]

They're not winning jobs in the USA, because the most promising players (who are interested in auditioning) have been encouraged/coerced into not playing them. LOL

As a troll... I'm wondering how many of these young Americans - even if allowed to use their C instruments and given a very fair hearing - could prevail in a European audition.

As a several-years- now Social Security recipient, I was just coerced into re-auditioning for my rinky-dink freeway-philharmonic job (major turnover of everything...) and was one of the few who wasn't dismissed (aka "sub-listed"). I played the huge B-flat on all but one excerpt, and used the 43-year-old F tuba on the required solo as well as for one excerpt. Admittedly, the job only pays a few thousand dollars annually...but how many jobs - these days - pay much more than that?

Three of the excerpts were quite low, moved along, and were revealing, as far as technique, time, and tuning are concerned.
Having not been interested in auditioning for anything and ages, I found all of those low excerpts to be easier - in all respects - using the B flat instrument.

[dp]

another clear-as-mud topic broached, and further muddied.

[bloke]

another clear-as-mud topic broached, and further muddied.

If one half of one sentence in one paragraph touches on a sidebar, that becomes the topic.

[russiantuba]

I don't mean to pick arguments (and I'm probably discussing much more than argument-picking), but I'm pretty sure that C saxophones were mostly used to read not-transposed lead sheets in small ensembles in hotel lobbies, and I'm not sure whether the "particularly for music education" is derogatory, or whether it refers to the fact that all of the tuba students encountered in mass education will be playing B flat tubas... or a bit of both...(??) ... and I'm not attacking, I'm just encouraging clarification.

Just as a reminder, central European orchestras either disallow or heavily discourage the use of C instruments. We can easily compare the US college C-instrument "just because" to their B-flat instrument "just because", but those people are all paid, and they've been at this longer than we have.

My mistake on C melody saxes--I have rarely heard them come up except when a saxophonist I knew was discussing how horrible their tuning was being a reason their use diminished.

As for the music education thing, a trumpet colleague I did my DMA with mentioned he has 3 years to get a trumpet player from sounding like a good high school player into a good college level/pro sounding student, especially for music education students. In general most of the trumpet players spent their time on Bb trumpets.

Part of the issue for CC tuba is not the fingerings, but the idea of pitch center and other idiosyncrasies with it, and I honestly feel students lose a couple months with fingerings and arguably an academic year with everything else. Even when a student "gets" the fingerings, I throw a sight-reading example up or ask them to quickly learn it, and it is often shaky at best.

Something particular for music education students is that they will be playing other brass in Bb, teaching brass in Bb, and at most schools, for half of their study, be in marching band on Bb sousaphones (or in one of my colleges, over the shoulder Bb tubas). To be fairly blunt and over generalistic, most music education students these days do not put much emphasis in the practice room (this goes all instruments). But as you said, since they will be teaching it, really developing a solid sound and technical concept on it will enhance their ability to teaching it.

Now, lets look past college for music education majors--this is in my personal experiences with several former students and classmates--many of them end up playing in community bands or brass bands, in particular where BBb tubas work better, or do marching parades and such. When traveling with said groups, it is by far easier to find BBb tubas to rent.

Also, many have been strapped for cash, are teaching at a school where they can use school tubas, sell their CC tubas, and realize when teaching, if they choose to use and demonstrate with a tuba to the entire band, that using a BBb tuba works easier (as told by a former student).

I see no use for music education students to learn CC, unless for whatever reason, they want to or prefer the color of the CC tuba. I will teach them on whatever key. I have noticed those who have stayed on BBb have overall progressed further based on their work input levels than those who have switched--just my observations. My job is to help students become successful and help them reach their goals and ensure they are playing at a certain musical level--the timbre of a contrabass tuba sound that might not even be detected in a professional audition matters not to me.