New player YBB-105

[Monostrophe]

Hello. My son is new to the tuba, hasn't even played a note yet. He played baritone last school year (just ended). The mouthpiece that came with his borrowed Yamaha YBB-105 is a Yamaha Japan 67. It is so much larger than his baritone mouthpiece. Is there a mouthpiece I can order him that has a smaller cup for him just starting out?

[DonO.]

I hate to tell you this, but the Yamaha 67 is already a small beginner’s tuba mouthpiece. Its specs are close to that of a Bach 22. In the Bach mouthpiece world, the larger the number, the smaller the mouthpiece. There is a Bach 25 you might want to try. It is a little smaller than the Yamaha 67/Bach 22. Bach 18 is considered medium. Bach 7 is large. But stay away from the Bach 24AW. It’s common but in my opinion its so called “cushion rim” holds students back.

There is no way around the fact that when switching to a larger instrument mouthpiece, the student just had to get used to it. It takes time but it will happen. When I was a student in the Dark Ages , I switched from trumpet to baritone to tuba. Each change took a little time but it happened. My advice would be to not worry too much and let nature take its course. The Bach 25 is something you might want to consider, but I don’t think it will make a lot of difference.

[gocsick]

Second that .. You can get Bach 25... it is the de facto starter Mouthpiece for young players... but really there isn't a huge advantage. It isn't that much smaller than the Yamaha 67 or other common tuba mouthpieces.

Tubas are big... they will learn and adjust quickly.

[arpthark]

Is there a mouthpiece I can order him that has a smaller cup for him just starting out?

The Yamaha 67 is that mouthpiece. When I was a kid, a tuba mouthpiece felt very large after switching from trombone (same mouthpiece switch as from baritone, basically) and it took a while for it to feel normal. I was also playing on a Yamaha 67. I think anything smaller will just be a stopgap crutch for their development. Tuba is big and weird and will feel big and weird for a while.

[2nd tenor]

Hello. My son is new to the tuba, hasn't even played a note yet. He played baritone last school year (just ended). The mouthpiece that came with his borrowed Yamaha YBB-105 is a Yamaha Japan 67. It is so much larger than his baritone mouthpiece. Is there a mouthpiece I can order him that has a smaller cup for him just starting out?

When I moved from trombone to tuba I found the mouthpiece change enormous and needed the smallest one that’d work. Your son is playing a small three valve BBb, as such I’d be surprised if a Bach 25 wasn’t both sufficient and easier to play than the Yamaha 67. One of my Band mates played a full sized BBb with something smaller that a Bach 25, a Wick 5 was what was supplied with the instrument and he was fine enough through the three valve range. At some later date, and particularly with a four valve instrument, your son will need something bigger but for now I’d try a second hand Bach 25 - or something of similar size from another manufacturer.

[Mary Ann]

I moved from horn to euph to tuba -- and yeppers it is a CHANGE. He will likely get pffing sounds at first and not use nearly enough air along with using faster air than a tuba wants. His chops will want to operate "like they are accustomed to" instead of the wider, more relaxed aperture needed in a tuba cup. If he can mess with it this summer he will be much better off in the fall after he has spent some time figuring it out. It took me 2-3 months to start sounding like I was playing a tuba. I do mean "start" sounding. Maybe his journey will be faster since he is young.
If you can't even see his corners with the cup you have, JK mouthpieces do come narrower, like an 8C, and they are not expensive. As he gets bigger he can use a wider cup.

[Jperry1466]

What grade is your son in, and how big is he? When I was a band director, I used to start my smaller 6th grade tuba students on a Bach 32E, about as small as they come, and probably comparable to the Denis Wick 5L. I supplied those mouthpieces, and after the 1st semester, or a little later, I graduated them to something larger, a Helleberg 7B, Bach 25 or 22. The little 32E helped them to establish embouchure and get to the lower notes a little sooner, but was not really suitable for middle school or high school band work.

[tofu]

But stay away from the Bach 24AW. It’s common but in my opinion its so called “cushion rim” holds students back.

I’ve never understood the hate for the 24AW. The British use it extensively and they sound pretty darn good on it as do many others around the world. The people who don’t like it seem to be pretty vocal about it and it’s a bit similar to the dislike directed at top action horns which again can be terrific tubas. I also think a lot of folks do quite well with cushioned rims.

Now I don’t use a 24aw myself, but somehow ended up with one. I think it showed up with of all things a new King 2350 Sousaphone my Muni band bought back in 1980 when I joined the band. It lives in the glove box of one of my cars as a spare emergency MP (I’ve got a lot of cars and a lot of MP’s sitting in glove boxes - so nothing I’d be upset if it got stolen) . It’s not my cup of tea, but when I’ve had to use it I’ve found it to be usable.

To the OP - here is a site (Kelly Mouthpieces - made in Wisconsin - Go Badgers!) for Lexon versions of many of the mouthpieces mentioned here. They are very reasonably priced and they play just like the brass originals. You can afford to buy/try a few and find one that works best for your son without breaking the bank. They are popular so easy to sell the ones he doesn’t like best and this site is a good place to sell. Other benefits they are very light and if he drops it - they won’t get damaged. Because they are plastic it makes it easier to march with because of both the lightness as well as if he has to march with a sousaphone in a parade or football game halftime etc it is playable in very cold weather. They also come in a variety of colors so he can pick a color he likes best. Best of luck to your son.

https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmtuba ... /index.asp

[DonO.]

But stay away from the Bach 24AW. It’s common but in my opinion its so called “cushion rim” holds students back.

I’ve never understood the hate for the 24AW. The British use it extensively and they sound pretty darn good on it as do many others around the world. The people who don’t like it seem to be pretty vocal about it and it’s a bit similar to the dislike directed at top action horns which again can be terrific tubas. I also think a lot of folks do quite well with cushioned rims.


https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmtuba ... /index.asp

I don’t hate them, exactly. That’s the wrong term. I just think it’s not a good choice for a beginner. The cushion rim will make developing flexibility more difficult. I also wouldn’t recommend a very narrow rim for a beginner either. A nice medium-ish Goldilocks rim would be best. For a more experienced player, the 24AW is a choice I suppose. Not my cup of tea, but certainly somebody must like them or they wouldn’t make them!

[GC]

I've steered several people changing from bone or baritone to tuba toward the Wick 4L. It's a good transition mouthpiece, diameter not too big and with a deep, wide cup to help with developing good tuba tone.

[2nd tenor]

But stay away from the Bach 24AW. It’s common but in my opinion its so called “cushion rim” holds students back.

I’ve never understood the hate for the 24AW. The British use it extensively and they sound pretty darn good on it as do many others around the world. The people who don’t like it seem to be pretty vocal about it and it’s a bit similar to the dislike directed at top action horns which again can be terrific tubas. I also think a lot of folks do quite well with cushioned rims.

Now I don’t use a 24aw myself, but somehow ended up with one. I think it showed up with of all things a new King 2350 Sousaphone my Muni band bought back in 1980 when I joined the band. It lives in the glove box of one of my cars as a spare emergency MP (I’ve got a lot of cars and a lot of MP’s sitting in glove boxes - so nothing I’d be upset if it got stolen) . It’s not my cup of tea, but when I’ve had to use it I’ve found it to be useable.

People often say that the British use 24AW’s but I live in the UK and I’ve not found that to be the case, in my particular experience folk mostly seem to use Wick mouthpieces. I tried a Bach 24W and found the outside diameter of the (extra wide) rim to be too wide for my face, it was uncomfortable, mine is not a small face and so I’m inclined to think that many school students would similarly find a 24AW to be too big (on the outside) to fit their face.

I've steered several people changing from bone or baritone to tuba toward the Wick 4L. It's a good transition mouthpiece, diameter not too big and with a deep, wide cup to help with developing good tuba tone.

I used one for a while on an EEb and it’s another good temporary mouthpiece during that transition. The three valve range worked fine but a bigger cup is, I find, needed for the four valve range.

[MiBrassFS]

.

[PlayTheTuba]

Kelly X-SMALL tuba mouthpiece. Made in lexon or stainless steel. The steel mouthpiece can be bought either as a "1 piece" or as a more modular "2 piece."

Kelly X-SMALL"1-piece" stainless steel with an American shank link.
https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmstai ... /index.asp


Denis Wick 5L. As others have mentioned. I did get a chance to see one in person. Seems like it's a tinie tiny bit smaller than the Kelly X-SMALL is.

Denis Wick 4L. I have tried a wick 4 before, this may also work well too.

Best of luck!

[Mary Ann]

Look at the width of mouthpiece candidates -- I'll just reiterate that it is the width that matters. If you can't see the corners of the lips at the side with a proper embouchure form (i.e., not "smiling,") it is too wide.

I remember someone telling me Carol Jantsch is "not a big woman," but if you look at videos of her playing, she has as much corners showing as a "typical guy tuba player" on whatever mouthpiece she is using. For me, with the JK 8C and the Wick 5, you can only barely see any corners at all, and although I can play on a 7B and a Wick 4, it is a LOT more work than the cups that are only a mm or two narrower. In terms of initial learning to play, you really need a cup that is not so wide that it adds unnecessary struggle. Perhaps the 32E is a good idea for the first month or so -- it is what I had at first, and I still only got pffing sounds. When I figured it out, I was able to move to one sized properly for my face.

PS: If I shop in the boys' department, which I do for some things because of fit, I wear a boys' large in most clothing, like shirts, shorts, coats, gloves, hats. Just trying to not have the poor kid stuck with an impossibility that makes him hate the tuba before he even gets started. For the record, I would also find a three valve Eb and start him on that instead of a BBb.

[tofu]

People often say that the British use 24AW’s but I live in the UK and I’ve not found that to be the case, in my particular experience folk mostly seem to use Wick mouthpieces. I tried a Bach 24W and found the outside diameter of the (extra wide) rim to be too wide for my face, it was uncomfortable, mine is not a small face and so I’m inclined to think that many school students would similarly find a 24AW to be too big (on the outside) to fit their face.

And yet that other old site we don’t speak of here had several British players on it who regularly that said it was both a piece they personally used and was popular with others over there. Perhaps that has changed over the years and is now no longer the case. The 24aw would randomly come up on that site and it was always the same discussion.

Personally, having been from the days of just a few tuba mouthpiece offerings - it forced one to learn to adapt and the focus becomes not on "if only I had the right equipment I could play better” to "how do I learn how to make it work for me." Not once in my life have I thought if only I had the right equipment I could do it so much better. I think it has become to easy (especially for young players) to concentrate on equipment vs actually figuring out how to play better. Learning the art of adapting and still achieving high levels is a valuable skill in whatever one does in life.

[2nd tenor]

And yet that other old site we don’t speak of here had several British players on it who regularly that said it was both a piece they personally used and was popular with others over there. Perhaps that has changed over the years and is now no longer the case. The 24aw would randomly come up on that site and it was always the same discussion.

Personally, having been from the days of just a few tuba mouthpiece offerings - it forced one to learn to adapt and the focus becomes not on "if only I had the right equipment I could play better” to "how do I learn how to make it work for me." Not once in my life have I thought if only I had the right equipment I could do it so much better. I think it has become to easy (especially for young players) to concentrate on equipment vs actually figuring out how to play better. Learning the art of adapting and still achieving high levels is a valuable skill in whatever one does in life.

On what’s used in the UK I can only speak of (my) personal experience: I don’t know (recall) anyone who uses a 24AW.

I’m a great believer in ‘it’s what you do with what you’ve got that matters’ and actually find that mindset very liberating. Once you set your mind to it and build the necessary skills there’s much that can be achieved with the less than ideal, on the other hand there are practical limits (to what the less than ideal can be used to achieve) and at times it’s not too dissimilar to running up a steep hill dragging a weight behind you.

Whilst making what you have work can be character forming it can also wear out and defeat some folk - I’ve had both satisfying successes and painful defeats. Giving someone near enough the right tools enables better progress whilst asking too much of them can result in little to no progress; maybe there’s some overall value in such defeat - what don’t kill you helps you grow stronger - but it doesn’t help with getting the intended task completed.

TLDR: be kind, help progress, give the learner an appropriate mouthpiece to develop playing skills on.

When I was a band director, I used to start my smaller 6th grade tuba students on a Bach 32E, about as small as they come, and probably comparable to the Denis Wick 5L. I supplied those mouthpieces, and after the 1st semester, or a little later, I graduated them to something larger, a Helleberg 7B, Bach 25 or 22. The little 32E helped them to establish embouchure and get to the lower notes a little sooner, but was not really suitable for middle school or high school band work.

^^ imho an informed guide for the OP.

The Bach 32e is a 29.5 mm cup, the Wick 5 and Bach 30e are 30.0 mm, the Bach 25 and Wick 4L are much the same at 30.6/30.5mm
https://johnpacker.co.uk/products/bach- ... 3122415835
https://www.ellismusic.com/images/docum ... arison.jpg

Tuba mouthpieces can be pricey, I usually cut the costs by buying second hand off of eBay.

Here’s a recent thread of similar content: Mouthpiece for a Smaller Student https://www.tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=10075