Odd find: Elkhorn by Getzen Sousaphone (made in Italy?)

[arpthark]

A friend recently picked this up for me: an Elkhorn ("a division of Getzen") sousaphone. I noticed the nickel silver outer slides and thought it might be European, and hornucopia says it was made by "Amborg in Germany," but it looks like Amborg was actually Italian. My guess was B&M.

17mm bore. Busted lower mouthpipe and a bunch of dents but all slides move and valves aren't too bad once they got cleaned up a bit.

[bloke]

I think I've only encountered one of these, and I couldn't repair it because it was missing a valve or two. It was a long time ago.

[York-aholic]

I’d make a vote for B&M.

They were contracted to make the York Master line (I think for Carl Fischer, who bought York). The ferrules on your sousaphone have the “waist”. Those were a York thing way back in the day. I’ve seen them on some smaller student line York Master tubas (not the larger one patterned on the York 712). Reference: YM Eb listed on Facebook and listed here in the off site deals page.

Elkhorn division of Getzen? I’ve got no answer to that.

[bloke]

I haven't seen many B&M instruments from that era which didn't feature top valve caps which had felt Donuts like King. This one does not have that. I'm thinking there were some Getzen/Elkhorn single F and compensating double horns that were imported from Italy.

I'm going to be the outlier here, and guess "some unknown Italian maker", and perhaps the same one that made those horns.

[arpthark]

I haven't seen many B&M instruments from that era which didn't feature top valve caps which had felt Donuts like King. This one does not have that. I'm thinking there were some Getzen/Elkhorn single F and compensating double horns that were imported from Italy.

I'm going to be the outlier here, and guess "some unknown Italian maker", and perhaps the same one that made those horns.

I think you are right. I did a bit of digging and "Amborg" seems to have been an Italian maker, despite what horn-u-copia said.

It definitely has the skinny profile of an Italian instrument, and it is goofy in other ways. There is no real tenon on the bell, and you instead insert the bell throat into the collar. I was like "There is no way that can be right!" but there are grooves on the outside of the throat where the screws sit. The bell screws themselves are very large and decorative and remind me of other Italian sousaphones I've seen.

Methinks this might be a parts/harvest horn and not a fix-up horn...

[gocsick]

It definitely has the skinny profile of an Italian instrument, and it is goofy in other ways. There is no real tenon on the bell, and you instead insert the bell throat into the collar. I was like "There is no way that can be right!" but there are grooves on the outside of the throat where the screws sit. The bell screws themselves are very large and decorative and remind me of other Italian sousaphones I've seen.

I briefly had an Orsi Eb sousaphone that made me think that it was designed by someone who had a sousaphone described to them but never actually saw one in person. I think it is a theme with Italian sousas.

[arpthark]

Yes. Most interesting thing I have come across in the Italian sousaphone regard is one marked "Crown" or some such that had this very intricate adjustable mouthpipe brace with a slot and screws that allowed you to adjust the angle of the lower mouthpipe. A bit overengineered and goofy.

I have a 14K lower mouthpipe that I can kind of get to fit this thing, so I at least want to hear what it sounds like before I part it out.

[bloke]

If it can be made to be playable, people will buy a playable sousaphone, and they don't care (unless they're some doofus like me) if it's Italian. I'm guessing you're only parting these out because they're not playable. If this one's only missing the lower mouthpipe, you can surely do something about that.

You might not want to shell out the money for a 20K lower mouthpipe, but what about cobbling one together out of a couple of slide bows, sticking a Conn receiver on top, bracing it up, and then buying a JP mouthpipe and bits?

[arpthark]

If it can be made to be playable, people will buy a playable sousaphone, and they don't care (unless they're some doofus like me) if it's Italian. I'm guessing you're only parting these out because they're not playable. If this one's only missing the lower mouthpipe, you can surely do something about that.

You might not want to shell out the money for a 20K lower mouthpipe, but what about cobbling one together out of a couple of slide bows, sticking a Conn receiver on top, bracing it up, and then buying a JP mouthpipe and bits?

Well, I am a 'fesshnul now (just filled out a W9 for a school to prove it), so I could probably do something like that.

I have a 14K lower mouthpipe and receiver, most of a Conn neck, and a couple of old Conn bits, to boot. Once I get to a point where I have more tinkering time, I'll take a closer look at what I can do with it.

[bloke]

I just don't know if a 14k lower mouthpipe would fit around that first valve slide tube like a 20K one would. If it does, all power to you.

[arpthark]

I ALSO have a filthy black-and-won't-polish-up "Elkhorn" mouthpiece to include with this instrument, if anyone wants it...!

[bloke]

Isn't there some aluminum foil trick with super tarnished silver?

[MiBrassFS]

B&M sousa braces and thumb ring are similar. What that means? Don’t know…

[bloke]

B&M sousa braces and thumb ring are similar. What that means? Don’t know…

That's a pretty damn convincing picture that my guess is wrong.

[gionvil]

I can just confirm that Amborg was an italian maker; the factory was located about 5 miles from where I live, and they used to make a line of instruments commonly used in the "italian style" band ( the whole range of flicorni from the small Eb flicornino down to the basso) and if I remember right they had a small bore - skinny sousaphone.

[arpthark]

Just an update that I was able to graft a 14K lower mouthpipe and receiver on, so this horn now works with normal Conn necks. I also was able to reuse some existing post braces and brace up the lower mouthpipe. (The LMP is also soldered to the first valve circuit where it contacts, so it’s pretty sturdy).

Still working out the MTS / water key situation (lots of dents right on the hole), but so far results have been encouraging. It’s ugly as sin but it’s a usable BBb sousaphone. I will be selling it for not very much money (sub $500) when it’s in playing condition, if anyone is interested.

Obviously I haven’t done any cleanup, but here’s the gist, no leaks:

[bloke]

You should have made a reel about it and put it on Instagram or TikTok, so that middle-aged 350 lb dudes laying on their mom's couches in their underwear could criticize it.

[WC8KCY]

Wow, seeing this thread sure brings back memories. The first tuba I ever played was one of these.

My school had two of them, from different vintages.

The older of the two resembled the one pictured here:
- Had nickel-silver outer slide tubes and bow guards
- Had plain tuning bits that had pips at the socket end similar to the tuning slide pips
- Had a plain neck that had a simple rod cross brace, and no bow guard protecting it
- Had wider valve buttons with a depression in the middle of the mother-of-pearl insets
- Had darker gold lacquer than the newer one
- Was the better of the two in terms of tone, slotting, and intonation

The newer one:
- Was lacquered brass throughout
- Had a Conn neck and tuning bits
- Had finger buttons that weren't as wide and, IIRC, had no depressions in the pearl insets
- Had squirrelly slotting and daffy intonation
- Was a chore to play no matter how many times it was "fixed"

Both had pitted valves and mouthpipes that kept detaching from the valve blocks. Slides, neck/bits, valve caps, and finger buttons were interchangeable between the two.

Being one of the older Elkhorns, I'm hopeful that yours will turn out to be a decent player.

Before moving to tuba, I give the horn a try with an Elkhorn by Getzen single F horn. It had mechanical valve linkages rather than strings--but beyond that, it was absolutely forgettable.

[WC8KCY]

Elkhorn division of Getzen? I’ve got no answer to that.

The public school system I attended had four Elkhorn by Getzen instruments: the two sousaphones and single F horn mentioned in my above post, and a baritone saxophone keyed to low B-flat.

All of the Elkhorns I've come across are stencils; the bari sax was inscribed "Made in Italy". Some Elkhorns were reputed to have been sourced from Buescher.

According to Getzen, these were their third-line student instruments--priced below the made-in-Elkhorn student Getzens--and were sold in the fifties and sixties.

The Elkhorn bari sax had some odd-looking keywork, but actually played pretty well; I remember it having quick, even response, and a fat, luscious tone. Someone needing a cheap bari sax could do a lot worse than an Elkhorn.

[arpthark]

Yes, this one only had one original finger button when I got it, but it is wide with a little depression in the middle of the pearl.

I'm kind of at the end of my finger button stash, so I will likely take that one off and put on a set of three matching ones.

It does play well. Very punchy, seems a bit smaller than a 14K. Intonation-wise, nothing stuck out to me as being overly awful. Once it warms up a bit, I will have to check the tuning on it with the new mouthpipe. My workshop was about 40 degrees yesterday, so not much could be determined besides relative intonation.

I was in a rush to paste it together yesterday, so I will still need to clean up all that solder and remove the burnt lacquer spots. This lacquer was very sensitive to heat and it started darkening almost as soon as I put the torch to it.

The Conn mouthpipe is not a perfect fit, but it's serviceable. I was very glad I was able to re-use the busted post bracing that I had planned on adding to my parts bin.

Once I sort out the MTS dents and water key situation, and remove all the lime and crud from the pistons, it will be pretty much ready to go.